Rolex Oyster 2081, Ex RAF POW.

[NickFenton]

Guys,

My Father died in 1976 and my Mother very recently.

I have found in my Mothers possessions a Rolex Oyster 2081 watch number 85146, which l assume was previously owned by my Father, which has surprised me.

My Father was an NCO POW who spent time in Stalag Luft's 3 and 6 and finished the war in Stalag 357.

I am aware of the POW's applying to Rolex for watches during their stay but l am not aware that this was the case regarding my Fathers watch.

I have tried Rolex but they say they do not have the records as to when this watch may have been manufactured or sold. Can anyone please help me as to whether this watch could have been purchased during the war.

Regards,

Nick
KenFentonsWar.com

[Tools]

It's not possible to say without the documentation that would have come with it.

The serial number places it in the early 1940's, but you are already making many assumptions as it could have been purchased at any time after that..

[R.W.T.]

That's an older watch than 1940's imo. The serial number for me dates it to around 1937. Hardly a 40's case variety, though it is possible that they continued that style into that era, these were actually begun in the 20's. This is the cushion counterpart to the famous canal swimmer.

If you could show a photo of the movement I could give you a better idea. There are running changes that can also help date the period of manufacture.

If that was your father's watch I would bet he had it prior to his capture and possibly even wore it during the war provided it was actually his and not from some other family member or something he picked up second hand at some other time.

[R.W.T.]

That also appears to be an original Rolex strap.

[AbsolutelyROLEX!]

Some great history there! if that watch could talk!

[NickFenton]

Thanks for your help Guys,

Rolex said it was manufactured between 1936 and 1950 something so really trying to narrow it down but that certainly does not tell me when it was 'sold' or purchased by my Father.

No assumptions made or trying to be made and yes, l wish the watch could talk because my Father and l never spoke about his experiences but l cannot imagine my Father affording this watch at the time, except with a lot of back pay perhaps but, being a Yorkshireman he was not a spendthrift at all.

Just looking for any facts surrounding this piece of family history rather than trying to make it into a family heirloom. I am afraid to say that much of my story is based on 'he would or may have' rather than 'he did' but there are many facts out there to be found. I am afraid however that the bill of sale or any reference to it is not one of them.

Any further information would be much appreciated.

Regards and thanks,

Nick
KenFentonsWar.com

[joe100]

The watch you have pictured there was made in 1939. The war started in November '39 so it is conceivable he bought it during. Too many variables without paperwork sadly

[adam78]

The early Oyster dating charts vary, but the one R.W.T. uses seems to be the most accurate for the pre-1955 Oysters IMO. So I also say 1937.

[Ue11]

Same model number, 88,000 serial number, so I agree with Adam's date.

[R.W.T.]

I will say things get VERY sketchy in the 30's with regards at attempted dating of oyster cases.

I'm not sure anyone can really date things accurately. Without gold content and hallmarks to back things up we're all fishing.

Lists were compiled early on by many people comparing notes of what came through shops, hallmarks, personal engravings etc. Rolex has never and likely never will publish a serial number list.

I find a serious anomaly on bubblebacks in the late thirties-early forties period...with lower serial numbers than their later counterparts, that for some reason contain later movements. It's not a random thing...and it's not a cobbled together situation....these are a certain range of numbers with a certain style of rotor weight always present....it's always the same...

The movements changed alot though they remained basically the same through the years. This is also true of the 10.5 and other manual wind calibres.

It's why unless you work on them...you can't explain to anyone how much trouble it can be. Eras in certain grades tend to have same parts...but you may have a 10.5 ligne say....from the mid 30's. You aren't going to take a mid 40's 10.5 ligne chronometer and start swapping parts. It's all trial and error. I gave a guy 10 pallet forks for a 10.5 ligne he had of a customers. There were at least 3 different pivot sizes. He never did find one to fit. He ended up changing the hole jewels to fit one he had. You don't just order up a pallet :L-)

If you have torn into hundreds, then you start to get a feel....if you haven't, then all you really know is what you have right there in front of you on your bench and if you were brought up on 3135's and ETA's you may just scratch your head alot. We do that anyway :-)

You can have 10 NOS hairsprings and NONE will work on the balance that you have in your watch or maybe any other balance you have on your bench that fits that watch. Endless varieties. They aren't even close. Even if you set up to vibrate them...you will have to likely completely reform the overcoil to make it fit in the watch.

Nothing became standardized until the 10xx series and then how many variations do you have on that? Every version of the calendar mech uses a different jumper spring.

I know that the list that I use generally for older pieces...works perfectly with 2 watches I own from 1948 with papers. You can't argue with papers :-)...or can you?

The interesting thing is....if memory serves the one with the higher serial number has earlier papers and an earlier movement.

I also had a chronometer with a case number of 687xx that had papers from 2/38 So????

Give or take a couple of years. :-)

What are ya gonna do?

You also have a situation where cases were ordered....and when were they assembled...when were they numbered....too much lack of information to draw hard and fast conclusions.

By late 1940 there is pretty distinctive change in the movement that gives the date away.

[R.W.T.]

For me...I'm just digging those original straps. Can we see the whole strap please. That looks like Rolex period stitching to me...:-)

[Ue11]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

For me...I'm just digging those original straps. Can we see the whole strap please. That looks like Rolex period stitching to me...:-)

R.W.T., I know nothing about straps but would love to learn. I'm traveling and this is the only photo I have access to, so I don't know what the underside of the strap looks like.

[adam78]

Hugh, that watch and strap are so cool.

[joe100]

I now defer to RWT! What he says goes in this thread. Very informative read for sure!

[R.W.T.]

"I now defer to RWT! What he says goes in this thread."

I am always looking for more information to clarify whatever conclusions we all may have come to. Don't defer to me :-) we might all get into trouble. I'm just not sure we can ever know for sure...in this early production 100% when...anything really happened. I think we have to view as sections of time rather than in years. :-) Anytime you study history you realize what looks like a quick change on this end of the spectrum was really a much slower process. In the 1930's I would bet, manufacturers weren't as apt to scrap something because it was older, they used it up until it was gone and then began adding in the new version. Some likely found clever ways of marketing items using the old style inventory. Waste was not common. People couldn't afford it and it was not part of their psyche.

[NickFenton]

Guys,

Can l first of all thank you all for your comments and warm welcome to this subject, l have really learnt a lot about these Rolex watches.

I attach further photos including the inside (I know) and the back for information.

I knew l could not really confirm one way or the other regarding the source of this watch without any documentation but the dating indicates acquisition either during or after the war. My Father was at Greese burying POW's towards the end of the war when a number of them were killed by allied air forces, some after 5 years as POW's and with all the carnage at war end, who knows how it was acquired.

The great story is that of Hans Wildorf and his support for the POW's.

Thanks once again for your help.

Regards,

Nick
KenFentonsWar.com

[R.W.T.]

That appears to be a Rolex strap to me. The stitching is very similar and that is one of the non signed buckle styles that they used. I have some NOS period straps. One has this buckle. Interesting that it is for fixed bars. Are the bars fixed? I wish we could get a closer picture of the movement. I would say definitely 30's. This is a NON superbalance watch. I can't be certain that they didn't continue to simultaneously use the old style balances but definitely some adjusted models were using super balance by 1938. This is an entry grade Rolex movement. Aegler made, but only 15 jewels. No cap jewels on the escape wheel. The movement is in very nice shape. Doesn't look it's seen much work ever. Once again a closer photo would be awesome! It would be interesting to see if it has a flat hairspring or a breguet. There are so many varieties....

The watch still retains the inner cap which is likely an early item akin to the one used in the Milgauss to shield against magnetism. These are usually discarded. I really like the watch! These are chrome cases and they usually are pitted on the backs beyond recognition and also the middle case frames corrode very badly.

I'd love to find one as untouched as this someday.