5513 Mark II - Could this be the one?

[fizz]

So another day, another seller brandishing what they claim is an exemplary specimen. The seller is from HK, and highly reputed here. The price seems fair to me and I think it's a really lovely piece. There are some additional pics I've requested of the case back and movement which should come through in a day or two, but in the meanwhile, any comments on this? Warning signs? Anything that sends alarms bells ringing? Crown guards etc. ok?

Some key things to note: 5.9 serial no, from 78/79, original bezel claimed, original dial and parts within.

Appreciate all the help I can get.

[Old Expat Beast]

NBTimes?

[fizz]

Yes I've read about both good and bad experiences. Should I be concerned?

[VerticalHorizon]

Something does not sit right with me with those hands.
The patina doesn't seem to match the dial and rest of the watch.

[Old Expat Beast]

If you check his profile you will see that he is currently banned. However, this is because his account here was hacked by someone who was approaching members to scam them. Just be sure you are actually dealing with Ben. How did you find this one?

[fizz]

Yes I've read about him being banned here due to what happened with his account. I found him via chrono24 and the watch is also listed on their website.

[Old Expat Beast]

Ok.

[2JHead]

Service insert and somewhat uneven patina as pointed out. Crown guards appear to be not as strong as the lugs.

[Wing Zero]

Originally Posted by 2JHead

Service insert and somewhat uneven patina as pointed out. Crown guards appear to be not as strong as the lugs.

+1

be prepared to shell out $700+ to get the insert back to original.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by 2JHead

Service insert and somewhat uneven patina as pointed out. Crown guards appear to be not as strong as the lugs.

i couldnt find the listing online. does it claim the insert is original? if so, you have to be asking yourself "what else is being claimed as original on the watch that isnt?"

[linesiders]

Give me $16,500 and I will find you a superb 5513, and add a Tudor Sub to the mix ;)

Seriously, how much is the 5513 as listed? Do you have specific requirements of a 5513? A late 70s is not as desirable as some earlier ones

[fizz]

Originally Posted by linesiders

Give me $16,500 and I will find you a superb 5513, and add a Tudor Sub to the mix ;)

Seriously, how much is the 5513 as listed? Do you have specific requirements of a 5513? A late 70s is not as desirable as some earlier ones

The price listed for this model by Ben is USD 10k. He has agreed to sell it to me for USD 9.2k. That's about as high I can possibly go without breaking the bank!

My price "research" suggests that a decent condition 5513 Mark II is now at least 9k USD. I'm in touch in parallel with at least 3 other sellers, 1 other from Hong Kong, one from France and one from the US. The prices are as follows:

1 - USD 16,500 (with box and papers and recent RSC Service valid for 2 years). This is the one I've linked above.
2 - USD 9,100 (from Vintage Watch Concept in HK, another reputable seller). Condition isn't as good as this and the bezel is damaged.
3 - USD 8,700 (from HQ Milton with a replacement bezel and a dial that has noticeable bubbling that makes it unappealing).

Looking at the forum here and TRF for the last 12 months suggests that Mark II usually sold for upwards of 8k in almost all cases.

My belief is that the Mark II dial as a concept is overhyped and people are buying into it. I'm not necessarily buying it for the hype but because it happens to be my birth year :)

Metres first dials are now available cheaper than any Mark I to Mark III and I can easily get those for less if I wanted to.

There are some 5513's from 79 that come with the Serif dial, such as this one here, but I like the Mark II better.

[Kingface66]

Anyone else find this odd in in the description: "When you look at the tritium markers, they're very nice and yellow. They look really natural...."

Why would one have to state they look natural, unless they weren't?

Just confusing.

[fizz]

Thanks.

It seems finding a proper specimen (all original parts, especially bezel) is near impossible. I have found one, but the buyer wants USD 16.5k (yes you read that right).

Every other model out there of the 5513 Mark 2 has a service bezel. hqmilton is full of 5513's with service bezels or missing pearls. If there is a piece that doesn't have faults, prices are USD 10k++.

So what's a guy supposed to do?

And between this and the previous one I was looking at, (still available) which one would you recommend.

This?
The previous one?
Wait?

[nycpassat]

PM sent

Originally Posted by fizz

Thanks.

It seems finding a proper specimen (all original parts, especially bezel) is near impossible. I have found one, but the buyer wants USD 16.5k (yes you read that right).

Every other model out there of the 5513 Mark 2 has a service bezel. hqmilton is full of 5513's with service bezels or missing pearls. If there is a piece that doesn't have faults, prices are USD 10k++.

So what's a guy supposed to do?

And between this and the previous one I was looking at, (still available) which one would you recommend.

This?
The previous one?
Wait?

[fizz]

Originally Posted by nycpassat

PM sent

Thanks, appreciate your help!

[fizz]

Good question Johnny, the listing doesn't talk about the insert. I had sent an email earlier to the seller (Ben) asking him to confirm if it's a replacement.

Here is what he's said about the watch on chrono24:

I'm pleased to offer for sale this beautiful and attractive Rolex 5513 submariner with its original Patina MKII MAXI dial in Perfect condition. The colour marker of this MAXI dial is simply amazing YELLOW!! The beautiful Lemon yellow colour tritium hour markers are just amazing & original with the matching hands set. This MAXI dial surface is simply flawless And perfect. When you look at the tritium markers, they're very nice and yellow. They look really natural and comfortable. Besides, the original 5,9 million serial stainless steel case is also in excellent condition as below. When you look at the following pictures, you will find the dial is just stunning!! In addition to its original tritium pearl and its matching colour hands set, the watch looks very attractive and amazing! It looks very nice in my wrist. The original 5,9 million serial number is still clearly engraved between the lugs. Guarantee 100% authentic Rolex MK2 MAXI dial Submariner 5513.

[JohnnyNoDate]

That feeling of uncertainty with NBT watches is what always kills it for me.

Almost perfect watches, in constant supply, at a fair market value... it's all too good to be true.

At the worst, it's a very high quality custom vintage "production."

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyNoDate

That feeling of uncertainty with NBT watches is what always kills it for me.

Almost perfect watches, in constant supply, at a fair market value... it's all too good to be true.

At the worst, it's a very high quality custom vintage "production."

My thoughts EXACTLY.

[fizz]

So dubious and I should pass I guess...

Makes me wonder, if reproductions are so good and so real like (I mean no one can tell if the dial is coloured or really aged patina, at least from these pics), who's to know the truth buying any vintage any more?

[Gliderguy]

I am new to vintage so please be kind! I can totally relate to the OP feelings. Regarding the U$16500. I find it too expensive due to the following facts:
-watch has been polished and polish job is not optimal
-service insert
-piece of tritium missing from minute hand
-plots show uneven aging
Am I too far away?

[fizz]

Thanks for pitching in Alberto.

The price of this is not 16.5k. It is actually 9.2k (which is still high, but seems like the new "normal").

The 16.5k piece is another one linked here.

[fizz]

And just to be transparent and fair, here is the link to the actual advert from NBT.

Lots more pics there. I think patina/aging is fairly even. There are some shadows from the crystal that may make it appear otherwise.

Also, not sure if tritium is missing. The link has some close up shots so those who want can evaluate.

[SLS]

I will state that I have never had a transaction with Ben, but I have certainly heard of him. Ben was a very active poster & seller on some of the other Rolex forums when I first joined them 10+ years ago. Yes, he always seems to have nice items, but typically isn't that what sells the best? I am not vouching for the guy, as I have never personally purchased an item from him. I am just stating that Ben has been around quite a while and maybe doing a reference check on VRF or watchnet may shed some light on how the rest of the community feels of him.
Scott

[fizz]

Originally Posted by SLS

I will state that I have never had a transaction with Ben, but I have certainly heard of him. Ben was a very active poster & seller on some of the other Rolex forums when I first joined them 10+ years ago. Yes, he always seems to have nice items, but typically isn't that what sells the best? I am not vouching for the guy, as I have never personally purchased an item from him. I am just stating that Ben has been around quite a while and maybe doing a reference check on VRF or watchnet may shed some light on how the rest of the community feels of him.
Scott

Scott, I've read feedback (numerous) from people who have bought from him and everyone was happy and no one seemed to complain about the watch being dodgy or not as is. In fact, a few also sent it to Rolex for service who further verified that all was as it should be. The only complaints I've read are related to the payment fiasco when his account was hacked, which was fairly recent. That seemed to have affected a few people who were vocal about their experience and wanted a resolution (not sure if any was given).

All in all, I think he has a solid repute as a vintage watch dealer (and to me is less risky than dealing with an individual or store I can find no reference of) and don't think he is being dubious at all, but the general consensus here (and other places too) seems to be - what he sells is too good to be true, therefore it can't be right.

[SLS]

Originally Posted by fizz

Scott, I've read feedback (numerous) from people who have bought from him and everyone was happy and no one seemed to complain about the watch being dodgy or not as is. In fact, a few also sent it to Rolex for service who further verified that all was as it should be. The only complaints I've read are related to the payment fiasco when his account was hacked, which was fairly recent. That seemed to have affected a few people who were vocal about their experience and wanted a resolution (not sure if any was given).

All in all, I think he has a solid repute as a vintage watch dealer (and to me is less risky than dealing with an individual or store I can find no reference of) and don't think he is being dubious at all, but the general consensus here (and other places too) seems to be - what he sells is too good to be true, therefore it can't be right.

PM sent

[GhostWriter]

See proof from him that it has either been serviced or keeps good time. I learned the hard way.

[fizz]

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

See proof from him that it has either been serviced or keeps good time. I learned the hard way.

Darrin, how do you ask for proof of keeping good time? Serviced would probably be some papers.

Did you buy/deal with Ben and watch was not as claimed? Care to elaborate on what you mean?

[GhostWriter]

Originally Posted by fizz

Darrin, how do you ask for proof of keeping good time? Serviced would probably be some papers.

Did you buy/deal with Ben and watch was not as claimed? Care to elaborate on what you mean?

check PM's

[qadhi]

Reputed sellers are important but always make sure you do your homework and double check everything as anybody can do "unintentional mistakes".

"All original" means genuine Rolex parts and may include parts changed during Rolex service or at the shop as part of the "spa". There are too many watches with some very obvious issues hiding behind the reputations maintained by some sellers so be very cautious.

Market pricing is managed by few vintage dealers and you can search for old advertisements to see how they keep pushing it further every few months.

There is a reason some watches keep showing up for several weeks or months and some with even price adjustments too often. Stay clear!

This is pretty much what I learned during my hunt for a red sub in a month. ☺

PS. If you come across something which really clicks all the check boxes of a good watch then do not hesitate to pay some premium.

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