Need advice - buyer claims watch received fake

[roach7]

Hi,
I recently shipped a brand new Tudor BB to a buyer in Australia and now 2 weeks later he's filing a PayPal claim stating that the serial # of the watch received did not match the one on the card. The he claimed that he took it to Rolex and they told him it's a fake. He proceeded to file a PayPal claim and now the funds are being held while the investigation takes place...

Has any seller here encountered such a scam?

Any advice on how I need to proceed with this so PayPal doesn't side with this scammer?

Thanks in advance!

[GLADIATOR]

Brand New?
You should have some evidence of purchase, credit card receipt, evidence from the AD??

[roach7]

Yes, I have the bill of sales from the AD... what if the buyer says I kept the real one and sent him the fake? I did not video tape the packing of the shipment and even if I did I've heard such video evidence is useless against claims like this.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by roach7

Yes, I have the bill of sales from the AD... what if the buyer says I kept the real one and sent him the fake? I did not video tape the packing of the shipment and even if I did I've heard such video evidence is useless against claims like this.

FIGHT, with the evidence you have
a package video is irrelevant, you can make that up as well.

Stand up and defend yourself with evidence from the AD, your purchase and your record with ebay!

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by roach7

Yes, I have the bill of sales from the AD... what if the buyer says I kept the real one and sent him the fake? I did not video tape the packing of the shipment and even if I did I've heard such video evidence is useless against claims like this.

^^^ This is the problem. There's no way for you to prove what the buyer received, or that you actually shipped the authentic item.

As unfair as this is, imagine being on the other side of this deal but with an unscrupulous seller. You respond to a eBay ad showing a real Rolex and pay for the item pictured. Seller sends you a cheap fake. Seller claims as proof that he has a receipt of purchase for the real Rolex. See what I mean? It proves nothing. Unless you can somehow establish that what he received is what you've sent I don't see how you can prevail in this situation.

The real question is who's got the burden of proof? The seller or the buyer? From what it seems, PayPal considers the buyer's word above all else barring some extenuating circumstance.

Anyone have a different experience?

[function12]

Originally Posted by Tony64

^^^ This is the problem. There's no way for you to prove what the buyer received, or that you actually shipped the authentic item.

As unfair as this is, imagine being on the other side of this deal but with an unscrupulous seller. You respond to a eBay ad showing a real Rolex and pay for the item pictured. Seller sends you a cheap fake. Seller claims as proof that he has a receipt of purchase for the real Rolex. See what I mean? It proves nothing. Unless you can somehow establish that what he received is what you've sent I don't see how you can prevail in this situation.

The real question is who's got the burden of proof? The seller or the buyer? From what it seems, PayPal considers the buyer's word above all else barring some extenuating circumstance.

Anyone have a different experience?

I bought a sony programmable remote many years ago. He was local but reused to meet FTF. He was to busy and just wanted to ship it. It arrived damaged and a closer look it has soda residue on the inside battery compartment. The seller wanted me to submit a damage claim to UPS instead of him giving me a refund. The box was not damaged at all. He was trying to sell me a broken remote. Thank goodness paypal refunded my money. I took it to UPS to show them the remote before I shipped it back. Never heard another work from the seller.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by function12

I bought a sony programmable remote many years ago. He was local but reused to meet FTF. He was to busy and just wanted to ship it. It arrived damaged and a closer look it has soda residue on the inside battery compartment. The seller wanted me to submit a damage claim to UPS instead of him giving me a refund. The box was not damaged at all. He was trying to sell me a broken remote. Thank goodness paypal refunded my money. I took it to UPS to show them the remote before I shipped it back. Never heard another work from the seller.

Exactly my point, and unfortunately in the OP's case I think that PayPal will side with the buyer here as well.

[csfischer20]

That’s why I don’t sell on eBay. My scammer managed to keep the watch, get a refund, and get me kicked off paypal because I wouldn’t give the money back since I never got the watch back. It was about 12 years ago on a 5500 airking. I hope they’ve changed, but I doubt it.

[swatty]

Where in Australia is this bloke ?

[roach7]

Originally Posted by swatty

Where in Australia is this bloke ?

Melbourne

[007timer]

I have been on eBay for 16 years and now more than ever on high ticket items the scammers are using every tool at their disposal. I don’t doubt you sent the real deal. I would provide the evidence and FIGHT it hard. If you show any doubt they will quickly make a decision to side with the buyer. Being scammers they know how to game the system. The truth is on your side. Now you just need to put up a fight and prove it.

[roach7]

Originally Posted by 007timer

I have been on eBay for 16 years and now more than ever on high ticket items the scammers are using every tool at their disposal. I don’t doubt you sent the real deal. I would provide the evidence and FIGHT it hard. If you show any doubt they will quickly make a decision to side with the buyer. Being scammers they know how to game the system. The truth is on your side. Now you just need to put up a fight and prove it.

Yes, something smells fishy when he files the claim and immediately escalates without even giving me a chance to dispute his claims.

[michaelodonnell123]

Originally Posted by 007timer

... The truth is on your side. Now you just need to put up a fight and prove it.

...The truth is a terrible defense.

[116710er]

So many perils with online sales. Although I rarely sell things on forums, when I do sell on forums, I much prefer to sell to a known/established buyer. I'll even take a hit on the selling price to sell to a known/established buyer.

Originally Posted by michaelodonnell123

...The truth is a terrible defense.

That's sounds like something a lawyer would say...lol

[yxc145]

Originally Posted by csfischer20

That’s why I don’t sell on eBay. My scammer managed to keep the watch, get a refund, and get me kicked off paypal because I wouldn’t give the money back since I never got the watch back. It was about 12 years ago on a 5500 airking. I hope they’ve changed, but I doubt it.

There is Ebay seller protection. if you never got a tracking number or receive an empty box. They will do a one time refund.

[schaumburgla]

I was already on the fence about accepting PP but now I am certainly only going to give that option too trusted forum members with top references. Can't agree more with whats already been said about getting some kind of written proof from
the RSC that he claims declared it as counterfeit.
Why in the world PP would simply side with the buyer without such written proof from the watch manufacturer themselves is baffling & frustrating.
I hope PP demands such proof & than you ultimately get your resolve.
Best
Justin

[roach7]

This is what he wrote on the dispute:

10/15/2017 21:34 EDT - Buyer: Hi.I have purchased this Tudor Black Bay from you recently and have been quite happy with the purchase, but some aspects of the quality and finishing bothered me (such as the rotating action of the bezel and the crown, it felt rusty and not smooth). I also noticed that the serial number engraved on the case of the watch did not match that of the number printed on the authenticity card. I started to suspect that this watch was a counterfeit and submitted it to Rolex Australia for an assessment and unfortunately regretfully informed me that the watch was a replica and not a genuine Tudor timepiece. Naturally, I am very upset about this and considering the huge amount of money I have spent on it, I would like to receive a full refund for this purchase. Please see attached pictures of all evidence. I will be waiting for correspondence from PayPal to find out what are the next steps in proceeding with this. I sincerely hope that you were not aware of this watch being counterfeit, and are not in the business of ripping people off intentionally, as that is very cruel.Peter

[jvmartin]

Exactly why some Trusted Sellers on TRF don't take Paypal... sorry to hear... unfortunately, this is likely not going to end in your favor... I would suggest making sure to thoroughly respond to every request for more information/documentation and call Paypal and see if you can speak to someone for further information on this case.. if you have a long history of selling and do significant business you MAY have a shot.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

Exactly why some Trusted Sellers on TRF don't take Paypal... sorry to hear... unfortunately, this is likely not going to end in your favor... I would suggest making sure to thoroughly respond to every request for more information/documentation and call Paypal and see if you can speak to someone for further information on this case.. if you have a long history of selling and do significant business you MAY have a shot.

Exactly this. Good luck, keep us informed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chewbacca]

sorry to hear.

PP will tell the buyer to send it back under either an eBay item not as described OR a PP dispute. the buyer has 2 options and 90 days. in fact, the buyer can return it up to 90 days for ANY reason. even if you state that you don't accept returns.

(from my own experience);

1) eBay will tell the seller, even without you knowing, to simply send the item back and they'll refund them with your funds in your account. (they can send a rock in a box and as long as its sent, ebay will assume they sent you the item.)

2) the refund ONLY happens IF you accept the delivery. with OR without a signature at deliver. UPS or FedEx or whatever can simply drop it off at your house and as long as it says it was 'delivered' the seller gets the money back.

3) WHATEVER you do, DO NOT open it unless you have a witness and a video recorder going. better yet, DO NOT accept it if you're there when it arrives. tell the driver you do NOT accept it. (the seller doesn't even need to post a tracking # to keep you in the loop.)

4) communicate ONLY via the resolution center message section. NO personal emails or texts. eBay will rely on their message center notes because any case worker can answer the call and they always need a few minutes to read it when you need their help.


this is a typical worst case eBay PP buyer fraud scenario, its rare, but when it happens, its a kick to the gut. without prejudice; if what you're describing is absolutely accurate, i really feel for you and know how you're feeling.


Hope it works out.

[swatty]

Would RSC in Melbourne confirm he took it there ?

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by swatty

Would RSC in Melbourne confirm he took it there ?

I thought the same.

[swatty]

Thinking this through a bit more. Tudors can be bought here cheaper than from US sellers. ( Taking in consideration exchange rate). Think he is out to scam the seller.

[roach7]

Originally Posted by swatty

Would RSC in Melbourne confirm he took it there ?

I thought Rolex will confiscate the watch if you brought in a fake?

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by roach7

I thought Rolex will confiscate the watch if you brought in a fake?

Nope. That's a myth.
They issue an official letter stating its counterfeit, and do you want it back or scrapped.
I have such a letter if OP needs as evidence.

OP. Demand via Paypal to see all buyers evidence. .
Ps it takes about two weeks for Rolex to respond?
A

[Sweetswisssteel]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Nope. That's a myth.
They issue an official letter stating its counterfeit, and do you want it back or scrapped.
I have such a letter if OP needs as evidence.

OP. Demand via Paypal to see all buyers evidence. .
Ps it takes about two weeks for Rolex to respond?
A

Doesn't take 2 weeks - Rolex in Melbourne are quick. Email them and ask about their process for verifying a watch. Good luck

Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by swatty

Would RSC in Melbourne confirm he took it there ?

Would likely depend on local privacy rules and Rolex Oz policy.

From my experience, you'd have to open a fraud case with the local police and then they would investigate on the sellers request.

Should also assume the buyer may be reading these posts.

Maybe the OP should mention whether the buyer is a high transaction count ebayer and also PM their user name. There may be a pattern if they're pros.

[blacklotus99]

Long time lurker but wanted to ask, have you sighted the so-called evidence that he refers to in the dispute note? RSC melbourne documents everything so I would imagine if he genuinely took it there (which Im not sure you can anyway for verification) there would be a document trail.

Any genuine buyer would have picked up the phone if there was an issue and you would have worked it out that way.

Having lost thousands of $ to scammers in watch transactions I sympathise. If you're unable to resolve this, PM me as I may have some local options for you.

[afnios1]

rsc in Melbourne will confirm as the buyer ,probably,brought them a fake watch he had[not the one he bought].You can keep eyes on him,as he will try to sell the good one soon and there you can catch him.If he return anything to you WITHOUT a need of a signature then you have to play ''dirty'' and claim that you never ever got any return.Hope that you can make it,so sorry this happened to you.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by afnios1

rsc in Melbourne will confirm as the buyer ,probably,brought them a fake watch he had[not the one he bought].You can keep eyes on him,as he will try to sell the good one soon and there you can catch him.If he return anything to you WITHOUT a need of a signature then you have to play ''dirty'' and claim that you never ever got any return.Hope that you can make it,so sorry this happened to you.

I seriously doubt that a scumbag scammer would go through this trouble.

Next step for me would be to try to find out if this really happened.