The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Forum > Other (non-Rolex) Watch Topics > Watches (Non-Rolex) Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 30 May 2020, 03:35 PM   #1
d11n
"TRF" Member
 
d11n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: UTC/GMT -8 hours
Watch: yes
Posts: 415
Frodsham Double Impulse Chronometer

Anyone got one or one on order? I'm seriously thinking of diving in ....

22K hardened yellow gold
pure white ceramic dial
blued steel hands and numerals
..and of course the double wheel Breguet escapement
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Charles-Frodsham-Wristwatch-Double-Impulse-Chronometer.jpg (199.7 KB, 776 views)
d11n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 May 2020, 03:51 PM   #2
Pongster
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Marikina
Posts: 2,561
How much is one?
Pongster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 May 2020, 04:06 PM   #3
Andad
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
Andad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Real Name: Eddie
Location: Australia
Watch: A few.
Posts: 37,510
An engineering masterpiece in horology and an amazing blend of materials.

The double layer ceramic dial and the twin escapement in particular are works of art.

I have the prices P but a bit of input from you would be good?

Ok lazybones,

The current wait for the Double Impulse Chronometer Wristwatch is approximately two years, with earliest delivery in 2020. The watch costs £68,500 in steel, £73,000 in 18k rose gold, and £74,500 in 22k yellow gold. Prices exclude taxes. It’s available direct from Charles Frodsham.
__________________
E

Andad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 May 2020, 07:33 PM   #4
ialienam
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Aus
Posts: 133
i thought they stopped taking new order?

But it's a bargain compared to Roger Smith... Both English watchmakers
ialienam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 01:25 AM   #5
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by ialienam View Post
i thought they stopped taking new order?

But it's a bargain compared to Roger Smith... Both English watchmakers
They are still taking orders, but as the waitlist is 3 years, they will have to adjust prices to reflect increases in cost of labor, etc., so they will let you know when your turn comes what the updated costs are and you can go forward or be refunded on the downpayment--this is all iirc. They are super up-front about everything.

I got in early and hope to have mine by New Year's. They are super nice people and you can even visit with them a month or so early and see your metal being poured (or whatever the term is, cast?) for the case of your watch!

The English style is meant to be totally unostentatious and never to call attention to itself or distract from the design of the movement itself, but there is a lot of hand finishing involved, mostly black polish. The applied numerals and hands are also hand polished before heat bluing to a purple color, again in the English style. The gear train is mostly solid 18k gold with high strength steel for the mainspring barrels, a high strength bronze alloy for the mainplates, titanium for the detent, etc.

This is a completely direct impulse, oil-free escapement, compared to the co-axial which gives direct and indirect impulses and requires lubrication in the escapement to deal with the shock of impulse on the parts.

In a personal communication with an old clockmaker who was a friend of George Daniels, this clockmaker said that Daniels knew the double impulse escapement was technically superior, but Daniels was very focused on having his work taken up by a Swiss company. "The Swiss won't accept a dual geartrain", he said, and so put his efforts into the co-axial. And it's true that the double impulse's requirement of two gear trains increases the complexity.

I've spoken to the first person to receive one and he says, as expected, it's an exceptional timekeeper.

So, what metal (18k rg, wg, 22k yg, SS), dial (ZrO2 ceramic or a silver dial is available on request. With or without Royal cyphers), numerals (Arabic or Roman) would you choose?
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 07:17 AM   #6
d11n
"TRF" Member
 
d11n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: UTC/GMT -8 hours
Watch: yes
Posts: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunlun View Post
They are still taking orders, but as the waitlist is 3 years, they will have to adjust prices to reflect increases in cost of labor, etc., so they will let you know when your turn comes what the updated costs are and you can go forward or be refunded on the downpayment--this is all iirc. They are super up-front about everything.

I got in early and hope to have mine by New Year's. They are super nice people and you can even visit with them a month or so early and see your metal being poured (or whatever the term is, cast?) for the case of your watch!

The English style is meant to be totally unostentatious and never to call attention to itself or distract from the design of the movement itself, but there is a lot of hand finishing involved, mostly black polish. The applied numerals and hands are also hand polished before heat bluing to a purple color, again in the English style. The gear train is mostly solid 18k gold with high strength steel for the mainspring barrels, a high strength bronze alloy for the mainplates, titanium for the detent, etc.

This is a completely direct impulse, oil-free escapement, compared to the co-axial which gives direct and indirect impulses and requires lubrication in the escapement to deal with the shock of impulse on the parts.

In a personal communication with an old clockmaker who was a friend of George Daniels, this clockmaker said that Daniels knew the double impulse escapement was technically superior, but Daniels was very focused on having his work taken up by a Swiss company. "The Swiss won't accept a dual geartrain", he said, and so put his efforts into the co-axial. And it's true that the double impulse's requirement of two gear trains increases the complexity.

I've spoken to the first person to receive one and he says, as expected, it's an exceptional timekeeper.

So, what metal (18k rg, wg, 22k yg, SS), dial (ZrO2 ceramic or a silver dial is available on request. With or without Royal cyphers), numerals (Arabic or Roman) would you choose?

That 22k yg is hard to resist...those hallmarks. The royal cyphers are pretty cool too. But the engineering of the watch is the marvel.
d11n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 03:34 PM   #7
ialienam
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Aus
Posts: 133
Thanks! And congrats to your purchase! Yes last year I was so looking for my first indie, I like it very much but being 42mm puts me off a bit (but have heard it would wear smaller than it says). And new price increase would likely to put me out too...

Have seen both GD and RWS (series 1) in person, love it. Indeed very different to Swiss style, at a glance, it looks "simple", but I only wish I had got in early, the prices are so expensive now =...= Well...to be fair, many indies are no longer the prices they were back years ago



Quote:
Originally Posted by kunlun View Post
They are still taking orders, but as the waitlist is 3 years, they will have to adjust prices to reflect increases in cost of labor, etc., so they will let you know when your turn comes what the updated costs are and you can go forward or be refunded on the downpayment--this is all iirc. They are super up-front about everything.

I got in early and hope to have mine by New Year's. They are super nice people and you can even visit with them a month or so early and see your metal being poured (or whatever the term is, cast?) for the case of your watch!

The English style is meant to be totally unostentatious and never to call attention to itself or distract from the design of the movement itself, but there is a lot of hand finishing involved, mostly black polish. The applied numerals and hands are also hand polished before heat bluing to a purple color, again in the English style. The gear train is mostly solid 18k gold with high strength steel for the mainspring barrels, a high strength bronze alloy for the mainplates, titanium for the detent, etc.

This is a completely direct impulse, oil-free escapement, compared to the co-axial which gives direct and indirect impulses and requires lubrication in the escapement to deal with the shock of impulse on the parts.

In a personal communication with an old clockmaker who was a friend of George Daniels, this clockmaker said that Daniels knew the double impulse escapement was technically superior, but Daniels was very focused on having his work taken up by a Swiss company. "The Swiss won't accept a dual geartrain", he said, and so put his efforts into the co-axial. And it's true that the double impulse's requirement of two gear trains increases the complexity.

I've spoken to the first person to receive one and he says, as expected, it's an exceptional timekeeper.

So, what metal (18k rg, wg, 22k yg, SS), dial (ZrO2 ceramic or a silver dial is available on request. With or without Royal cyphers), numerals (Arabic or Roman) would you choose?
ialienam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 03:33 AM   #8
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by _speedmaster_ View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeQqi_9rYRc

Excellent pickup Kunlun. Congrats in advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ialienam View Post
Thanks! And congrats to your purchase! Yes last year I was so looking for my first indie, I like it very much but being 42mm puts me off a bit (but have heard it would wear smaller than it says). And new price increase would likely to put me out too...

Have seen both GD and RWS (series 1) in person, love it. Indeed very different to Swiss style, at a glance, it looks "simple", but I only wish I had got in early, the prices are so expensive now =...= Well...to be fair, many indies are no longer the prices they were back years ago
Thanks guys!

Yes, the 42.2mm is not for every wrist, but it's a bit over 10mm, so the proportions are good and it'll slip under a shirt cuff. Compare to the 13.5mm height of the RWS. These are all what you'd call "gentleman's watches", not dress warches, so bigger is okay, but proportions should be balanced.

Looks like prices are raising for costs of labor and parts, not to profit off popularity (not that I am against that, just that it's not what's happening here). So, hopefully, if you get in now, it won't be too bad.

James Dowling, longtime watch dealer and writer, said on IG that he's had George Daniels and Roger W Smith's watches on his wrist, but it's Charles Frodsham he put an order in for.
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 11:48 AM   #9
ialienam
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Aus
Posts: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunlun View Post
Thanks guys!

Yes, the 42.2mm is not for every wrist, but it's a bit over 10mm, so the proportions are good and it'll slip under a shirt cuff. Compare to the 13.5mm height of the RWS. These are all what you'd call "gentleman's watches", not dress warches, so bigger is okay, but proportions should be balanced.

Looks like prices are raising for costs of labor and parts, not to profit off popularity (not that I am against that, just that it's not what's happening here). So, hopefully, if you get in now, it won't be too bad.

James Dowling, longtime watch dealer and writer, said on IG that he's had George Daniels and Roger W Smith's watches on his wrist, but it's Charles Frodsham he put an order in for.
Thanks for the insights, yah I will check out James Dowling IG.

Yes, I have heard about that from my friend too (who I think will get his one this year), and he said it would wear better than the 42mm suggests, short lugs and it's not too thick..

But I was more scared of price increase (judging from Roger Smith's increase), so I went for another indies instead.

One of my goals to own an English watch in the future!
ialienam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 December 2020, 05:09 PM   #10
d11n
"TRF" Member
 
d11n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: UTC/GMT -8 hours
Watch: yes
Posts: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunlun View Post

I got in early and hope to have mine by New Year's.

Just curious if you are on track for your beautiful watch? I'm much deeper on the list...still 2 years away...
d11n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 12:06 AM   #11
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by d11n View Post
Just curious if you are on track for your beautiful watch? I'm much deeper on the list...still 2 years away...
Soon, they say! Well, still on track for New Year's, but that's now approaching!

What dial and metal did you go with?
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 01:40 PM   #12
d11n
"TRF" Member
 
d11n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: UTC/GMT -8 hours
Watch: yes
Posts: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunlun View Post

What dial and metal did you go with?

22K yellow gold, arabic numerals, and the cyphers...but since I have time, I'm hoping to visit Richard at the shop and see the options in person before I have to give my final answer...

you?
d11n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 08:17 AM   #13
Cozmopak
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 115
This watch is a work of art. I prefer it to Roger Smith
Cozmopak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 08:26 AM   #14
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
We need some pictures:






















https://watchesbysjx.com/2018/09/han...ristwatch.html
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 08:50 AM   #15
AEC
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Real Name: Tony
Location: Orchard Park, NY
Watch: Idiot Savant
Posts: 3,368
Wow. Just wow.
AEC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 09:01 AM   #16
_speedmaster_
"TRF" Member
 
_speedmaster_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,443
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeQqi_9rYRc

Excellent pickup Kunlun. Congrats in advance.
__________________
Blancpain | Chopard LUC | Grand Seiko/King Seiko | Grönefeld | Laurent Ferrier | Moritz Grossmann | Omega | Trilobe | Urban Jürgensen


instagram.com/ct_watch_guy
_speedmaster_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 11:08 AM   #17
GreenLantern
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,223
Absolutely lovely.

Been wanting to put in an order for one of these for a while. Might as well try now despite the forever wait list.

Worth noting that RW Smith is also 3+ years out, too. I have a couple on order. Patience is key with these indies. The patience is rewarded with absolute magic in the end.
GreenLantern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 02:27 PM   #18
MILGAUSS88
"TRF" Member
 
MILGAUSS88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: mississippi river
Posts: 3,186
Since Charles Frodsham is not the actual watchmaker, I thought this revived brand name was more like Czapek, or maybe to a lesser extent Moser. Not a watch at the level of RW Smith for being made by one hand.

If the owner/watchmaker does not put there own name on the company, I would assume that they are having some work done by other people. Like Gronefeld or Laurent Ferrier. (I notice the irony, that even though they put their own name on the watch.)

Doing minimal research, I could not find information that would indicate wether or not Charles Frodsham Company, makes all of there parts in house.
Is there some article that spells that out?

I did find this article:

https://www.qpmagazine.com/long-read...e-chronometer/

It mentions using a Unitas movement for the base in the prototype, it talks about finishing techniques, but does not really spell out what is actually done in house now.

Can someone provide more concrete information?

Last edited by MILGAUSS88; 31 May 2020 at 02:29 PM.. Reason: ...
MILGAUSS88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 May 2020, 06:03 PM   #19
yoast
"TRF" Member
 
yoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: HK
Posts: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88 View Post
Can someone provide more concrete information?
Just watch the video from post #10
__________________
IG: @yoast.watch
https://www.instagram.com/yoast.watch/
yoast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 03:13 AM   #20
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88 View Post
Since Charles Frodsham is not the actual watchmaker, I thought this revived brand name was more like Czapek, or maybe to a lesser extent Moser. Not a watch at the level of RW Smith for being made by one hand.

If the owner/watchmaker does not put there own name on the company, I would assume that they are having some work done by other people. Like Gronefeld or Laurent Ferrier. (I notice the irony, that even though they put their own name on the watch.)
You're gotten pretty far from understanding the watch and company, I hope I can help.


First, Charles Frodsham is in continuous production since 1834!

It is NOT a revival name, not an old name bought by someone modern for a new company. In English, we can say that something brought again to people's attention has had their name "revived", perhaps that is the confusion as one article used that phrase while also explaining that the company goes back to 1834 to today.

In the same way Patek Philippe was sold and is now owned by the Stern family, Charles Frodsham is owned by Richard Stenning and Philip Whyte, with a descendant of the original Charles Frodsham on the board of directors.

Quote:
The firm of Charles Frodsham & Co Ltd. – today located at 32 Bury Street in central London, while its workshop with half a dozen craftsmen is about an hour outside the city – is the oldest “continuously trading firm of chronometer manufacturers in the world”.

Charles Frodsham started in the watch business in 1834, with his namesake firm specialising in pocket watches, marine chronometers and clocks for much of its history.
https://watchesbysjx.com/2018/03/cha...ristwatch.html


Second, Charles Frodsham makes their own watches. There is no excuse for claiming otherwise. You should know that most companies such as Audemars Piguet, Jaeger Lecoultre, as well as independent watchmakers such as Phillippe Dufour all use third party companies for various specialty parts.

Quote:
Almost all of the watch is made in-house by Frodsham at its workshop, which is staffed by seven watchmakers. The sapphire crystals, mainsprings and O-rings are obtained from Switzerland, while the wire for the hairspring is made by a European supplier, though its overcoil is formed by hand at Frodsham. Notably, even the jewels are in-house, being “new old stock” rubies originally made for small pocket watches many decades ago.
https://www.alphaluxe.com/2019/03/ha...e-chronometer/



The escapement was tested on a Unitas base, but then a purpose built movement was engineered for the escapement:

Quote:
Then began the hard work of developing the prototypes into production ready versions; the Unitas ‘mules’ had been built with no thought given to aesthetics, the only target being to get the thing to work. But now great thought and care was given to the appearance of the movement and the challenge became to retain the aesthetics without compromising the mechanical integrity. The decision was made that mechanics would come first and that aesthetics would always play second fiddle, but the Frodsham team had cut their teeth (in both senses of the phrase) on vintage movements. So they were inspired by the aesthetics of the vintage Frodshams to produce a movement which not only worked flawlessly, but also looked perfect.

Early on in the development process, it was realised that individual components could rarely be designed in isolation. While a wheel or bridge might look better if it was five per cent slimmer or had a different finish, once fitted to the movement it could look wrong next to its fellow components, so the decision was made never to work on individual components alone – visual changes and modifications to parts were done in context with their surrounding components.

The balance between mechanics and aesthetics is best shown in the wide range of materials used in the watch – titanium for the detent, 18ct rose gold for the train wheels, black polished steel for the balance bridge, tungsten carbide for the balance timing weights and a special three metal copper alloy (copper/nickel/tin) for the balance wheel
https://www.qpmagazine.com/long-read...e-chronometer/
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 04:11 AM   #21
thrillhouse
"TRF" Member
 
thrillhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 39
Beautiful watch with incredible engineering. When considering a watch from an independent like this, are people concerned about parts availability should the company no longer exist in the future? I know in this case they’ve been around since 1834, but the tolerances required to pull off that escapement are so tight it’s difficult to imagine even the best watchmaker being able to create replacements should they fail.
thrillhouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 04:16 AM   #22
bigfatpauli
"TRF" Member
 
bigfatpauli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillhouse View Post
Beautiful watch with incredible engineering. When considering a watch from an independent like this, are people concerned about parts availability should the company no longer exist in the future? I know in this case they’ve been around since 1834, but the tolerances required to pull off that escapement are so tight it’s difficult to imagine even the best watchmaker being able to create replacements should they fail.
Consider as time passes, everything gets easier to make.

Imagine a tourbillion in the early 1800's. Someone at that time might have thought, "If Mr. Breguet passes away, no one will every be able to repair my watch!"

Today, we have cheap, mass produced Sea-Gul troubillions.

(I know someone is going to completely misunderstand my point there...)

As 3d printing gets better, as CNC machines get better, as laser cutting gets better, these parts will be easier and easier to make.
bigfatpauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 04:30 AM   #23
thrillhouse
"TRF" Member
 
thrillhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfatpauli View Post
Consider as time passes, everything gets easier to make.

Imagine a tourbillion in the early 1800's. Someone at that time might have thought, "If Mr. Breguet passes away, no one will every be able to repair my watch!"

Today, we have cheap, mass produced Sea-Gul troubillions.

(I know someone is going to completely misunderstand my point there...)

As 3d printing gets better, as CNC machines get better, as laser cutting gets better, these parts will be easier and easier to make.
Sure, but those are mass production techniques. For a watchmaker to make a one-off replacement they’d need to create the design in CAD, have the equipment to CNC/print it, then test it and iterate, as it’s unlikely they’ll have the original specs from the manufacturer. Not only are those skills far from what a watchmaker in current times has, even if there is a shift in training and technology it’s hard to imagine that as being an economical way to produce a bespoke part.
thrillhouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 11:07 AM   #24
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillhouse View Post
Sure, but those are mass production techniques. For a watchmaker to make a one-off replacement they’d need to create the design in CAD, have the equipment to CNC/print it, then test it and iterate, as it’s unlikely they’ll have the original specs from the manufacturer. Not only are those skills far from what a watchmaker in current times has, even if there is a shift in training and technology it’s hard to imagine that as being an economical way to produce a bespoke part.

As you noted, since Charles Frodsham has been around since 1834, you should express the very same concern with buying a Patek, as they are not so different in age...

But while this was the wrong place for this somewhat trite concern, in a way, it's also a good place for it--just that it's not a concern for Charles Frodsham.

Let's say instead that tomorrow Roger W Smith is Abducted By Space Unicorns to be Galactic Imperial Watchmaker to HRH Sunshine Rainbow IV. Now, who will service his watches? Seriously, who? Omega co-axials have evolved enough that an Omega-trained watchmaker told me they are functionally different escapements now.

The answer is: Charles Frodsham. They are the ones Derek Pratt (without whom Daniels could not have made the co-axial) entrusted his project to make a copy of the insane Harrison H4 Marine Chronometre. And they did it. It was a huge achievement.



http://frodsham.com/commissions/h4/

It's small specialty companies that can do that kind of high, high end work. It's not a question of doing it economically, but doing it right.
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 June 2020, 11:09 AM   #25
bigfatpauli
"TRF" Member
 
bigfatpauli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillhouse View Post
Sure, but those are mass production techniques. For a watchmaker to make a one-off replacement they’d need to create the design in CAD, have the equipment to CNC/print it, then test it and iterate, as it’s unlikely they’ll have the original specs from the manufacturer. Not only are those skills far from what a watchmaker in current times has, even if there is a shift in training and technology it’s hard to imagine that as being an economical way to produce a bespoke part.

Watch makers fabricate parts regularly to replace broken or damaged parts: it isn't as uncommon as you may think.
bigfatpauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 02:39 AM   #26
Watchflair
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
Watchflair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Real Name: Jim
Location: Westchester NY
Watch: Love em all
Posts: 5,920
Very interesting - thank you for reviving this thread. Going to enjoy doing some research on the brand and movement. Looks very interesting to say the least.

I would wonder how it would compare to a Roger Smith - anyone know the current wait times for one of his pieces?

Not English but I would also wonder how this compares to Voutilainen...
__________________
Remember what matters. Value everyday
Watchflair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 08:55 AM   #27
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchflair View Post
Very interesting - thank you for reviving this thread. Going to enjoy doing some research on the brand and movement. Looks very interesting to say the least.

I would wonder how it would compare to a Roger Smith - anyone know the current wait times for one of his pieces?

Not English but I would also wonder how this compares to Voutilainen...
I'm sure if you ask 10 people, you'll get 10 opinions. All of these are very, very fine watches.

I'll give my take.

A Voutilainen vingt-8 is lovely, and you get a lot of customization options, these options affect the price, of course. The width can go from 38mm to 42mm and about 12mm thick. Kari's own company can do great enameled guilloché work. He was very open to most things when I asked him about some ideas. The only idea he hated was a deployant clasp!

So, I think that's the best option if customization is the most important.
Also, his watches have nice Swiss style finishing with anglage, etc. There are a lot options with movement finishing as well, you could have the mainplates frosted or given Geneva waves, for example.

In terms of something a lot of people don't care so much about, horology, Kari uses a double wheel escapement, which is a rare and very cool thing. This is a modern version of A.L. Breguet's natural escapement. That's awesome and it's hard to overstate how much more horologically interesting a KV is than, say, a Philippe Dufour, which obviously has its own extraordinary and marvelous beauty, but is horologically dull.

However, in the context of this comparison, and really only in this sort of comparison, then there is a caveat. In the late 18th century, A.L. Breguet abandoned his natural escapement due to issues with the play and proper meshing of the gears. Modern technology and methods allows for much finer precision. So. Kari's escapement works well...but it still has the issues Breguet's did in theory. It's an advance in materials and production tolerances, but not in design. I talked to Kari in person about this in the before times when people met in person.
Anyway, a great watchmaker and he had a 10 month wait at that time.


Roger W Smith's watches are fantastic, their price point is higher than other watches, if that matters.
There is also some customization possible, although less than with Kari. I should be frank, I think Roger's watches are the most beautiful watches. The GREAT Britain is super lovely in person. They are 13.5mm thick, which is at the point where it's not going under a shirt cuff as easily. Has a co-axial escapement ever been put in a production watch under 10mm thick? I know it's possible, but it seems to never happen, if only someone would *cough*Omega*cough*.

Anyway, the finish is in the English style, very little anglage, frosted plates, black polish, but Roger's been doing engraving on the plates more to make them more fancy. It's lovely, but still very far from the showiness of the Swiss style (which George Daniels criticized). The English style is understated to avoid a showing off that they found tacky and distracting from the horology. That's why you see a lot of black polish as a hand-work intensive accent that doesn't draw too much attention to itself. The idea is that quality speaks for itself.

The escapement is co-axial, the second of George Daniels' escapements, only possible with the help of Derek Pratt, whom Daniels could never bring himself to credit fully. It's a compromise escapement, made to fulfill Daniels' desire to see one of his escapements bought and used by a major Swiss brand. It has one direct and one indirect impulse and requires lubrication in the escapement (Roger is looking to a future use of ADLC coating on the movement to eliminate this). Roger also doesn't use a Breguet terminal curve on the hairspring, which is ridiculous. It's nice but isn't the peak, from the point of view of horology which nobody cares about. He had a 3+ year wait when I asked a while back...


Finally, there is the Frodsham. Designed over a 15 year period to be a no-compromise daily wearing chronometre, it has as close to an ideal escapement for a watch as can be found within traditional watchmaking. The Daniels double escapement brillantly perfects A.L. Breguet's natural escapement and solves the issue inherent in the original design. It's a completely oil-free escapement and gives only direct impluses and has a much, much higher degree of detachment. For a very rate stable chronometer, you want a very high detachment, this is the degree to which the balance is disturbed by the detent--the greater the disturbance, the less detachment. So, the horology that many people don't care about is a main event here with the first ever use of Daniels double impulse escapement in a wristwatch. For those who aren't as into the horology, they still have a very well crafted, very high quality, true chronometer of a timepiece.

I've spoken enough about the other qualities of the watch in previous posts in this thread, but it really is made to let the quality speak for itself in the truest English style. In steel or white gold, this is the real daily wearer of the three, hands down. One member of the Frodsham design team wore a prototype on long bike rides and bike commutes to work for months, the other mowed his lawn and did everything else while wearing it. I spoke to the first person to buy one and he confirmed his keeps excellent time.
The customization options here are much less than the other choices. This is the most understated movement in terms of finishing, but there's some very nice black polish. Althpugh this is the thinnest watch of the three at 10.5mm, 42mm may not fit every wrist.
It's a 3 year wait currently.

I went with the Frodsham, but any of these are amazing watches made by fantastic watchmakers.
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 08:33 PM   #28
fmc000
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Real Name: Fabio
Location: Como - Italy
Posts: 4,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunlun View Post
I'm sure if you ask 10 people, you'll get 10 opinions. All of these are very, very fine watches.

I'll give my take.

A Voutilainen vingt-8 is lovely, and you get a lot of customization options, these options affect the price, of course. The width can go from 38mm to 42mm and about 12mm thick. Kari's own company can do great enameled guilloché work. He was very open to most things when I asked him about some ideas. The only idea he hated was a deployant clasp!

So, I think that's the best option if customization is the most important.
Also, his watches have nice Swiss style finishing with anglage, etc. There are a lot options with movement finishing as well, you could have the mainplates frosted or given Geneva waves, for example.

In terms of something a lot of people don't care so much about, horology, Kari uses a double wheel escapement, which is a rare and very cool thing. This is a modern version of A.L. Breguet's natural escapement. That's awesome and it's hard to overstate how much more horologically interesting a KV is than, say, a Philippe Dufour, which obviously has its own extraordinary and marvelous beauty, but is horologically dull.

However, in the context of this comparison, and really only in this sort of comparison, then there is a caveat. In the late 18th century, A.L. Breguet abandoned his natural escapement due to issues with the play and proper meshing of the gears. Modern technology and methods allows for much finer precision. So. Kari's escapement works well...but it still has the issues Breguet's did in theory. It's an advance in materials and production tolerances, but not in design. I talked to Kari in person about this in the before times when people met in person.
Anyway, a great watchmaker and he had a 10 month wait at that time.


Roger W Smith's watches are fantastic, their price point is higher than other watches, if that matters.
There is also some customization possible, although less than with Kari. I should be frank, I think Roger's watches are the most beautiful watches. The GREAT Britain is super lovely in person. They are 13.5mm thick, which is at the point where it's not going under a shirt cuff as easily. Has a co-axial escapement ever been put in a production watch under 10mm thick? I know it's possible, but it seems to never happen, if only someone would *cough*Omega*cough*.

Anyway, the finish is in the English style, very little anglage, frosted plates, black polish, but Roger's been doing engraving on the plates more to make them more fancy. It's lovely, but still very far from the showiness of the Swiss style (which George Daniels criticized). The English style is understated to avoid a showing off that they found tacky and distracting from the horology. That's why you see a lot of black polish as a hand-work intensive accent that doesn't draw too much attention to itself. The idea is that quality speaks for itself.

The escapement is co-axial, the second of George Daniels' escapements, only possible with the help of Derek Pratt, whom Daniels could never bring himself to credit fully. It's a compromise escapement, made to fulfill Daniels' desire to see one of his escapements bought and used by a major Swiss brand. It has one direct and one indirect impulse and requires lubrication in the escapement (Roger is looking to a future use of ADLC coating on the movement to eliminate this). Roger also doesn't use a Breguet terminal curve on the hairspring, which is ridiculous. It's nice but isn't the peak, from the point of view of horology which nobody cares about. He had a 3+ year wait when I asked a while back...


Finally, there is the Frodsham. Designed over a 15 year period to be a no-compromise daily wearing chronometre, it has as close to an ideal escapement for a watch as can be found within traditional watchmaking. The Daniels double escapement brillantly perfects A.L. Breguet's natural escapement and solves the issue inherent in the original design. It's a completely oil-free escapement and gives only direct impluses and has a much, much higher degree of detachment. For a very rate stable chronometer, you want a very high detachment, this is the degree to which the balance is disturbed by the detent--the greater the disturbance, the less detachment. So, the horology that many people don't care about is a main event here with the first ever use of Daniels double impulse escapement in a wristwatch. For those who aren't as into the horology, they still have a very well crafted, very high quality, true chronometer of a timepiece.

I've spoken enough about the other qualities of the watch in previous posts in this thread, but it really is made to let the quality speak for itself in the truest English style. In steel or white gold, this is the real daily wearer of the three, hands down. One member of the Frodsham design team wore a prototype on long bike rides and bike commutes to work for months, the other mowed his lawn and did everything else while wearing it. I spoke to the first person to buy one and he confirmed his keeps excellent time.
The customization options here are much less than the other choices. This is the most understated movement in terms of finishing, but there's some very nice black polish. Althpugh this is the thinnest watch of the three at 10.5mm, 42mm may not fit every wrist.
It's a 3 year wait currently.

I went with the Frodsham, but any of these are amazing watches made by fantastic watchmakers.
Just... thank you.
fmc000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 08:58 PM   #29
fairfax
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 28
That was an amazing summary and recapped my decision pathway towards the Frodsham too. In the end, I'm about the technical achievements of Derek Pratt placed into this movement.

I went with the 22k YG in Roman numerals -- can't decide on the cyphers. What made you want them included on the dial?
fairfax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 December 2020, 10:55 PM   #30
kunlun
"TRF" Member
 
kunlun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by d11n View Post
22K yellow gold, arabic numerals, and the cyphers...but since I have time, I'm hoping to visit Richard at the shop and see the options in person before I have to give my final answer...

you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairfax View Post
That was an amazing summary and recapped my decision pathway towards the Frodsham too. In the end, I'm about the technical achievements of Derek Pratt placed into this movement.

I went with the 22k YG in Roman numerals -- can't decide on the cyphers. What made you want them included on the dial?
I hope you both will revive this thread with pictures when your watches arrive, please!

I'm going with 22k yg as well (we all have excellent taste! Plus 22k yg is unique in modern watchmaking), roman numerals, and no cypher. The dial is very hard zirconium oxide ceramic and the text and minutes track are laid down by vapor deposition of chromium oxide which will never fade.

In terms of the cyphers, they look cool, but one can consider whether having the negative space present without them is preferable or not. There's no wrong answers, I like a bit of negative space on a dial, so that's my take.
kunlun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 34 (0 members and 34 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Asset Appeal

Wrist Aficionado

DavidSW Watches

Takuya Watches

OCWatches


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.