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30 May 2020, 03:35 PM | #1 |
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Frodsham Double Impulse Chronometer
Anyone got one or one on order? I'm seriously thinking of diving in ....
22K hardened yellow gold pure white ceramic dial blued steel hands and numerals ..and of course the double wheel Breguet escapement |
30 May 2020, 03:51 PM | #2 |
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How much is one?
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30 May 2020, 04:06 PM | #3 |
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An engineering masterpiece in horology and an amazing blend of materials.
The double layer ceramic dial and the twin escapement in particular are works of art. I have the prices P but a bit of input from you would be good? Ok lazybones, The current wait for the Double Impulse Chronometer Wristwatch is approximately two years, with earliest delivery in 2020. The watch costs £68,500 in steel, £73,000 in 18k rose gold, and £74,500 in 22k yellow gold. Prices exclude taxes. It’s available direct from Charles Frodsham.
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30 May 2020, 07:33 PM | #4 |
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i thought they stopped taking new order?
But it's a bargain compared to Roger Smith... Both English watchmakers |
31 May 2020, 01:25 AM | #5 | |
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I got in early and hope to have mine by New Year's. They are super nice people and you can even visit with them a month or so early and see your metal being poured (or whatever the term is, cast?) for the case of your watch! The English style is meant to be totally unostentatious and never to call attention to itself or distract from the design of the movement itself, but there is a lot of hand finishing involved, mostly black polish. The applied numerals and hands are also hand polished before heat bluing to a purple color, again in the English style. The gear train is mostly solid 18k gold with high strength steel for the mainspring barrels, a high strength bronze alloy for the mainplates, titanium for the detent, etc. This is a completely direct impulse, oil-free escapement, compared to the co-axial which gives direct and indirect impulses and requires lubrication in the escapement to deal with the shock of impulse on the parts. In a personal communication with an old clockmaker who was a friend of George Daniels, this clockmaker said that Daniels knew the double impulse escapement was technically superior, but Daniels was very focused on having his work taken up by a Swiss company. "The Swiss won't accept a dual geartrain", he said, and so put his efforts into the co-axial. And it's true that the double impulse's requirement of two gear trains increases the complexity. I've spoken to the first person to receive one and he says, as expected, it's an exceptional timekeeper. So, what metal (18k rg, wg, 22k yg, SS), dial (ZrO2 ceramic or a silver dial is available on request. With or without Royal cyphers), numerals (Arabic or Roman) would you choose? |
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31 May 2020, 07:17 AM | #6 | |
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That 22k yg is hard to resist...those hallmarks. The royal cyphers are pretty cool too. But the engineering of the watch is the marvel. |
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31 May 2020, 03:34 PM | #7 | |
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Thanks! And congrats to your purchase! Yes last year I was so looking for my first indie, I like it very much but being 42mm puts me off a bit (but have heard it would wear smaller than it says). And new price increase would likely to put me out too...
Have seen both GD and RWS (series 1) in person, love it. Indeed very different to Swiss style, at a glance, it looks "simple", but I only wish I had got in early, the prices are so expensive now =...= Well...to be fair, many indies are no longer the prices they were back years ago Quote:
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1 June 2020, 03:33 AM | #8 | ||
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Yes, the 42.2mm is not for every wrist, but it's a bit over 10mm, so the proportions are good and it'll slip under a shirt cuff. Compare to the 13.5mm height of the RWS. These are all what you'd call "gentleman's watches", not dress warches, so bigger is okay, but proportions should be balanced. Looks like prices are raising for costs of labor and parts, not to profit off popularity (not that I am against that, just that it's not what's happening here). So, hopefully, if you get in now, it won't be too bad. James Dowling, longtime watch dealer and writer, said on IG that he's had George Daniels and Roger W Smith's watches on his wrist, but it's Charles Frodsham he put an order in for. |
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1 June 2020, 11:48 AM | #9 | |
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Yes, I have heard about that from my friend too (who I think will get his one this year), and he said it would wear better than the 42mm suggests, short lugs and it's not too thick.. But I was more scared of price increase (judging from Roger Smith's increase), so I went for another indies instead. One of my goals to own an English watch in the future! |
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1 December 2020, 05:09 PM | #10 |
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2 December 2020, 12:06 AM | #11 |
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2 December 2020, 01:40 PM | #12 |
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31 May 2020, 08:17 AM | #13 |
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This watch is a work of art. I prefer it to Roger Smith
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31 May 2020, 08:26 AM | #14 |
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31 May 2020, 08:50 AM | #15 |
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Wow. Just wow.
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31 May 2020, 09:01 AM | #16 |
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31 May 2020, 11:08 AM | #17 |
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Absolutely lovely.
Been wanting to put in an order for one of these for a while. Might as well try now despite the forever wait list. Worth noting that RW Smith is also 3+ years out, too. I have a couple on order. Patience is key with these indies. The patience is rewarded with absolute magic in the end. |
31 May 2020, 02:27 PM | #18 |
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Since Charles Frodsham is not the actual watchmaker, I thought this revived brand name was more like Czapek, or maybe to a lesser extent Moser. Not a watch at the level of RW Smith for being made by one hand.
If the owner/watchmaker does not put there own name on the company, I would assume that they are having some work done by other people. Like Gronefeld or Laurent Ferrier. (I notice the irony, that even though they put their own name on the watch.) Doing minimal research, I could not find information that would indicate wether or not Charles Frodsham Company, makes all of there parts in house. Is there some article that spells that out? I did find this article: https://www.qpmagazine.com/long-read...e-chronometer/ It mentions using a Unitas movement for the base in the prototype, it talks about finishing techniques, but does not really spell out what is actually done in house now. Can someone provide more concrete information? Last edited by MILGAUSS88; 31 May 2020 at 02:29 PM.. Reason: ... |
31 May 2020, 06:03 PM | #19 |
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Just watch the video from post #10
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1 June 2020, 03:13 AM | #20 | ||||
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First, Charles Frodsham is in continuous production since 1834! It is NOT a revival name, not an old name bought by someone modern for a new company. In English, we can say that something brought again to people's attention has had their name "revived", perhaps that is the confusion as one article used that phrase while also explaining that the company goes back to 1834 to today. In the same way Patek Philippe was sold and is now owned by the Stern family, Charles Frodsham is owned by Richard Stenning and Philip Whyte, with a descendant of the original Charles Frodsham on the board of directors. Quote:
Second, Charles Frodsham makes their own watches. There is no excuse for claiming otherwise. You should know that most companies such as Audemars Piguet, Jaeger Lecoultre, as well as independent watchmakers such as Phillippe Dufour all use third party companies for various specialty parts. Quote:
The escapement was tested on a Unitas base, but then a purpose built movement was engineered for the escapement: Quote:
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1 June 2020, 04:11 AM | #21 |
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Beautiful watch with incredible engineering. When considering a watch from an independent like this, are people concerned about parts availability should the company no longer exist in the future? I know in this case they’ve been around since 1834, but the tolerances required to pull off that escapement are so tight it’s difficult to imagine even the best watchmaker being able to create replacements should they fail.
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1 June 2020, 04:16 AM | #22 | |
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Imagine a tourbillion in the early 1800's. Someone at that time might have thought, "If Mr. Breguet passes away, no one will every be able to repair my watch!" Today, we have cheap, mass produced Sea-Gul troubillions. (I know someone is going to completely misunderstand my point there...) As 3d printing gets better, as CNC machines get better, as laser cutting gets better, these parts will be easier and easier to make. |
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1 June 2020, 04:30 AM | #23 | |
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1 June 2020, 11:07 AM | #24 | |
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As you noted, since Charles Frodsham has been around since 1834, you should express the very same concern with buying a Patek, as they are not so different in age... But while this was the wrong place for this somewhat trite concern, in a way, it's also a good place for it--just that it's not a concern for Charles Frodsham. Let's say instead that tomorrow Roger W Smith is Abducted By Space Unicorns to be Galactic Imperial Watchmaker to HRH Sunshine Rainbow IV. Now, who will service his watches? Seriously, who? Omega co-axials have evolved enough that an Omega-trained watchmaker told me they are functionally different escapements now. The answer is: Charles Frodsham. They are the ones Derek Pratt (without whom Daniels could not have made the co-axial) entrusted his project to make a copy of the insane Harrison H4 Marine Chronometre. And they did it. It was a huge achievement. http://frodsham.com/commissions/h4/ It's small specialty companies that can do that kind of high, high end work. It's not a question of doing it economically, but doing it right. |
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1 June 2020, 11:09 AM | #25 | |
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Watch makers fabricate parts regularly to replace broken or damaged parts: it isn't as uncommon as you may think. |
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2 December 2020, 02:39 AM | #26 |
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Very interesting - thank you for reviving this thread. Going to enjoy doing some research on the brand and movement. Looks very interesting to say the least.
I would wonder how it would compare to a Roger Smith - anyone know the current wait times for one of his pieces? Not English but I would also wonder how this compares to Voutilainen...
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2 December 2020, 08:55 AM | #27 | |
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I'll give my take. A Voutilainen vingt-8 is lovely, and you get a lot of customization options, these options affect the price, of course. The width can go from 38mm to 42mm and about 12mm thick. Kari's own company can do great enameled guilloché work. He was very open to most things when I asked him about some ideas. The only idea he hated was a deployant clasp! So, I think that's the best option if customization is the most important. Also, his watches have nice Swiss style finishing with anglage, etc. There are a lot options with movement finishing as well, you could have the mainplates frosted or given Geneva waves, for example. In terms of something a lot of people don't care so much about, horology, Kari uses a double wheel escapement, which is a rare and very cool thing. This is a modern version of A.L. Breguet's natural escapement. That's awesome and it's hard to overstate how much more horologically interesting a KV is than, say, a Philippe Dufour, which obviously has its own extraordinary and marvelous beauty, but is horologically dull. However, in the context of this comparison, and really only in this sort of comparison, then there is a caveat. In the late 18th century, A.L. Breguet abandoned his natural escapement due to issues with the play and proper meshing of the gears. Modern technology and methods allows for much finer precision. So. Kari's escapement works well...but it still has the issues Breguet's did in theory. It's an advance in materials and production tolerances, but not in design. I talked to Kari in person about this in the before times when people met in person. Anyway, a great watchmaker and he had a 10 month wait at that time. Roger W Smith's watches are fantastic, their price point is higher than other watches, if that matters. There is also some customization possible, although less than with Kari. I should be frank, I think Roger's watches are the most beautiful watches. The GREAT Britain is super lovely in person. They are 13.5mm thick, which is at the point where it's not going under a shirt cuff as easily. Has a co-axial escapement ever been put in a production watch under 10mm thick? I know it's possible, but it seems to never happen, if only someone would *cough*Omega*cough*. Anyway, the finish is in the English style, very little anglage, frosted plates, black polish, but Roger's been doing engraving on the plates more to make them more fancy. It's lovely, but still very far from the showiness of the Swiss style (which George Daniels criticized). The English style is understated to avoid a showing off that they found tacky and distracting from the horology. That's why you see a lot of black polish as a hand-work intensive accent that doesn't draw too much attention to itself. The idea is that quality speaks for itself. The escapement is co-axial, the second of George Daniels' escapements, only possible with the help of Derek Pratt, whom Daniels could never bring himself to credit fully. It's a compromise escapement, made to fulfill Daniels' desire to see one of his escapements bought and used by a major Swiss brand. It has one direct and one indirect impulse and requires lubrication in the escapement (Roger is looking to a future use of ADLC coating on the movement to eliminate this). Roger also doesn't use a Breguet terminal curve on the hairspring, which is ridiculous. It's nice but isn't the peak, from the point of view of horology which nobody cares about. He had a 3+ year wait when I asked a while back... Finally, there is the Frodsham. Designed over a 15 year period to be a no-compromise daily wearing chronometre, it has as close to an ideal escapement for a watch as can be found within traditional watchmaking. The Daniels double escapement brillantly perfects A.L. Breguet's natural escapement and solves the issue inherent in the original design. It's a completely oil-free escapement and gives only direct impluses and has a much, much higher degree of detachment. For a very rate stable chronometer, you want a very high detachment, this is the degree to which the balance is disturbed by the detent--the greater the disturbance, the less detachment. So, the horology that many people don't care about is a main event here with the first ever use of Daniels double impulse escapement in a wristwatch. For those who aren't as into the horology, they still have a very well crafted, very high quality, true chronometer of a timepiece. I've spoken enough about the other qualities of the watch in previous posts in this thread, but it really is made to let the quality speak for itself in the truest English style. In steel or white gold, this is the real daily wearer of the three, hands down. One member of the Frodsham design team wore a prototype on long bike rides and bike commutes to work for months, the other mowed his lawn and did everything else while wearing it. I spoke to the first person to buy one and he confirmed his keeps excellent time. The customization options here are much less than the other choices. This is the most understated movement in terms of finishing, but there's some very nice black polish. Althpugh this is the thinnest watch of the three at 10.5mm, 42mm may not fit every wrist. It's a 3 year wait currently. I went with the Frodsham, but any of these are amazing watches made by fantastic watchmakers. |
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2 December 2020, 08:33 PM | #28 | |
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2 December 2020, 08:58 PM | #29 |
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That was an amazing summary and recapped my decision pathway towards the Frodsham too. In the end, I'm about the technical achievements of Derek Pratt placed into this movement.
I went with the 22k YG in Roman numerals -- can't decide on the cyphers. What made you want them included on the dial? |
2 December 2020, 10:55 PM | #30 | ||
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I'm going with 22k yg as well (we all have excellent taste! Plus 22k yg is unique in modern watchmaking), roman numerals, and no cypher. The dial is very hard zirconium oxide ceramic and the text and minutes track are laid down by vapor deposition of chromium oxide which will never fade. In terms of the cyphers, they look cool, but one can consider whether having the negative space present without them is preferable or not. There's no wrong answers, I like a bit of negative space on a dial, so that's my take. |
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