The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Forum > Other (non-Rolex) Watch Topics > Watches (Non-Rolex) Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 28 June 2020, 12:28 PM   #1
thrillhouse
"TRF" Member
 
thrillhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 39
Crazy results from Phillips Geneva Watch Auction

Widely available watches going multiples over used/grey prices. What gives? People have cash to burn?

https://www.phillips.com/auctions/auction/CH080120
thrillhouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 12:40 PM   #2
dchang81
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 2,173
Those numbers make no sense. A safari going for that??? I'm skeptical that there isn't something funny going on, which is not out of the ordinary for some of these auctions.
dchang81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 01:15 PM   #3
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 21,189
Posted this elsewhere... could be money laundering.
__________________
__________________

----> Was Great Seeing Everyone At The TRF December 9 Tampa Meetup <----
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=968133

Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school.
www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 01:51 PM   #4
yoast
"TRF" Member
 
yoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: HK
Posts: 2,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
Posted this elsewhere... could be money laundering.
obviously...
__________________
IG: @yoast.watch
https://www.instagram.com/yoast.watch/
yoast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 03:25 PM   #5
thrillhouse
"TRF" Member
 
thrillhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoast View Post
obviously...
Care to elaborate, because it isn’t obvious to me. I could believe the crazy Journe prices as money laundering, but several modern Rolex lots for tens of thousands doesn’t seem worth the risk. Is there something inherently more private about buying the same watch at an auction vs an online dealer?
thrillhouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 05:35 PM   #6
cascavel
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Santa Fe
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
Posted this elsewhere... could be money laundering.
Nah, just folks with money having fun spending it. Not so easy to do these days.
cascavel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 04:13 PM   #7
WatchEater666
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,983
Auction prices have never been accurate....

Always stupid to base a purchase off of them.
WatchEater666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 07:26 PM   #8
ts3
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,517
Some of the SOLD FOR quotes from that Phillips auction have me wonder if they include the Buyer's Premium rather than just the Hammer Price.
ts3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28 June 2020, 07:41 PM   #9
shafran
"TRF" Member
 
shafran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: woodmere,ny
Posts: 582
But Lange sold low

Don't understand the lack of love there
shafran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 01:11 AM   #10
DGB
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: uk
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by shafran View Post
Don't understand the lack of love there

It is just that you can find some of these watches for a much cheaper price as easily as checking on C24.
Why would you pay so much more?
Bizarre indeed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 01:42 AM   #11
Uncle-AJ
"TRF" Member
 
Uncle-AJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Real Name: Adrian
Location: Bolton, UK.
Watch: Daytona 116520
Posts: 6,844
A 2012 white face Daytona 116520 with APH dial just went for £30,000!! I have a 2015 model, with APH dial and Chromalight lume. I'm now wondering what that would have achieved.

But then I came back to Earth.
__________________
A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.........Segal's Law

Member #10
Uncle-AJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 01:34 AM   #12
Wahlberg
"TRF" Member
 
Wahlberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Paris
Posts: 3,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle-AJ View Post
A 2012 white face Daytona 116520 with APH dial just went for £30,000!! I have a 2015 model, with APH dial and Chromalight lume. I'm now wondering what that would have achieved.

But then I came back to Earth.
What's APH?
Wahlberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 01:45 AM   #13
Uncle-AJ
"TRF" Member
 
Uncle-AJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Real Name: Adrian
Location: Bolton, UK.
Watch: Daytona 116520
Posts: 6,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahlberg View Post
What's APH?
On the dial the word COSMOGRAPH has a small gap between the R and the A, making it look like the APH is a separate word.

__________________
A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.........Segal's Law

Member #10
Uncle-AJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 01:47 AM   #14
powerfunk
"TRF" Member
 
powerfunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Real Name: Rob
Location: Boston, MA
Watch: 1530
Posts: 3,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahlberg View Post
What's APH?
A batch of 116520's with a very slight gap between COSMOGR and APH. Sold for double a normal 16520 price. Pretty perfect example of the insanity of Rolex collecting nowadays.
powerfunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 02:55 AM   #15
broham84
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 610
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillhouse View Post
Widely available watches going multiples over used/grey prices. What gives? People have cash to burn?

https://www.phillips.com/auctions/auction/CH080120
Manufacturers sometimes buy back their own products at auctions to prop up the resale value and demand, chalk it up to "advertisement expense".
broham84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 04:53 AM   #16
watchucallit
"TRF" Member
 
watchucallit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: San Fran
Posts: 2,218
Do the listed prices include the auction fees that need to be paid on top of the sales price.
Hard to believe it represents money laundering-- the auction house would have to be a willing participant or maybe I don't understand how money laundering works.
Also hard to believe all the manufacturers were over bidding in the same auction? It was not just one brand that went for a ridiculous price.
watchucallit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 05:17 AM   #17
Nav01L
"TRF" Member
 
Nav01L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Real Name: Fred
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchucallit View Post
Do the listed prices include the auction fees that need to be paid on top of the sales price.
Hard to believe it represents money laundering-- the auction house would have to be a willing participant or maybe I don't understand how money laundering works.
Also hard to believe all the manufacturers were over bidding in the same auction? It was not just one brand that went for a ridiculous price.
You buy an in demand watch somewhere, at say 20k, put it to auction. Your buddy with all the drug money outbids everyone by paying 50k, now you „legitimately“ made 30k in an auction... or your buddy and you successfully laundered 50k, assuming the entry price for the watch was paid with clean money. All that cost you was the fees and premiums. Happens all the time in the art world and no doubt with watches too. Any asset with highly fluctuating value is exposed to that. The auction house doesn’t necessarily know. Though you’d think Phillips would have some level of KYC going, so not sure if a scheme like that wouldn’t be caught.
__________________
Greetings from Switzerland

Remember, the dignity you surrender at your AD‘s doorstep will never be recovered by wearing the watch he may get you.
Nav01L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 08:02 AM   #18
watchucallit
"TRF" Member
 
watchucallit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: San Fran
Posts: 2,218
OK got it.. I assumed the launderer was buying the watches with his dirty money and then selling them legitimately elsewhere even at a loss. But your scheme makes more sense..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav01L View Post
You buy an in demand watch somewhere, at say 20k, put it to auction. Your buddy with all the drug money outbids everyone by paying 50k, now you „legitimately“ made 30k in an auction... or your buddy and you successfully laundered 50k, assuming the entry price for the watch was paid with clean money. All that cost you was the fees and premiums. Happens all the time in the art world and no doubt with watches too. Any asset with highly fluctuating value is exposed to that. The auction house doesn’t necessarily know. Though you’d think Phillips would have some level of KYC going, so not sure if a scheme like that wouldn’t be caught.
watchucallit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 June 2020, 11:51 AM   #19
broham84
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav01L View Post
You buy an in demand watch somewhere, at say 20k, put it to auction. Your buddy with all the drug money outbids everyone by paying 50k, now you „legitimately“ made 30k in an auction... or your buddy and you successfully laundered 50k, assuming the entry price for the watch was paid with clean money. All that cost you was the fees and premiums. Happens all the time in the art world and no doubt with watches too. Any asset with highly fluctuating value is exposed to that. The auction house doesn’t necessarily know. Though you’d think Phillips would have some level of KYC going, so not sure if a scheme like that wouldn’t be caught.
As a CPA and background in forensic research, this is not how they do it. Art world maybe, but not a 50k Daytona. Even in art world you need to pay tax on gains which is higher margin than other ways to achieve the same goal.
broham84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 12:39 AM   #20
Uncle-AJ
"TRF" Member
 
Uncle-AJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Real Name: Adrian
Location: Bolton, UK.
Watch: Daytona 116520
Posts: 6,844
A watch journalist friend of mine was there and I asked him what he attributed the inflated prices to. He replied with a picture showing the cars parked outside the Auction House.



He went on to say that some of the people who attended were willing to pay 30k a night on an hotel suite. If they saw something they liked, they bought it.
__________________
A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.........Segal's Law

Member #10
Uncle-AJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 01:29 AM   #21
cbalster
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Hillsborough
Posts: 744
I believe most of the stock was sold to phone bidders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle-AJ View Post
A watch journalist friend of mine was there and I asked him what he attributed the inflated prices to. He replied with a picture showing the cars parked outside the Auction House.



He went on to say that some of the people who attended were willing to pay 30k a night on an hotel suite. If they saw something they liked, they bought it.
I believe most of the stock was sold to phone bidders?
cbalster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 05:36 AM   #22
watchucallit
"TRF" Member
 
watchucallit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: San Fran
Posts: 2,218
I have heard for some high end events, the sponsors rent these cars for appearance sake. Wonder if they saw various owners come and go..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle-AJ View Post
A watch journalist friend of mine was there and I asked him what he attributed the inflated prices to. He replied with a picture showing the cars parked outside the Auction House.



He went on to say that some of the people who attended were willing to pay 30k a night on an hotel suite. If they saw something they liked, they bought it.
watchucallit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 02:14 AM   #23
Rocketman39
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Florida
Watch: 5513,Hulk,GMTII
Posts: 364
Any item is only worth what someone is willing to Pay for it. This is It ! I might be able to come with enough Cash to buy a Lug Nut on one of those Cars !
Rocketman39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 June 2020, 02:24 AM   #24
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 21,189
Eh, so what about the (eventually defective) car that was parked. Many were phone-in orders. Btw, Bugatti and Bentley's don't impress, as to me they say buyer beware (if you've ever dealt with Bentley defects, you know what i mean, a horrible company as had two Bentley cars... NEVER again!!!!!!!!!!).

Come to think about it, maybe your guy is right. Stupidity has many forms regardless of pricing.
__________________
__________________

----> Was Great Seeing Everyone At The TRF December 9 Tampa Meetup <----
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=968133

Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school.
www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Wrist Aficionado

My Watch LLC

WatchesOff5th

DavidSW Watches

Takuya Watches

OCWatches


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.