The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Old 23 August 2022, 08:25 PM   #1
unknown
"TRF" Member
 
unknown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,868
Imo the best article In many years….

https://quillandpad.com/2022/08/21/i...d-for-the-ind/


And definitely for the 90-95% out there that don’t know that much about watches but just buy certain brands.
__________________
Instagram : @collectible_watches
unknown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 August 2022, 08:36 PM   #2
FrugalGreubel
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: NY
Watch: Voutilainen (2030)
Posts: 803
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown View Post
https://quillandpad.com/2022/08/21/i...d-for-the-ind/


And definitely for the 90-95% out there that don’t know that much about watches but just buy certain brands.
That was a very fun read. Thanks for sharing!
FrugalGreubel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 August 2022, 09:15 PM   #3
charger_vital
"TRF" Member
 
charger_vital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Basel
Watch: LF Sport & Pepsi
Posts: 1,008
Great Article. Thanks!
charger_vital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 August 2022, 09:39 PM   #4
GoingPlaces
"TRF" Member
 
GoingPlaces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,356
Internal angles vs rounded curves, never knew. Great article.
GoingPlaces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 August 2022, 11:48 PM   #5
Skyrider01
2024 Pledge Member
 
Skyrider01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Real Name: Mady
Location: USA
Posts: 1,313
Great article! I learned a few things. Thanks for sharing.
Skyrider01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 August 2022, 11:49 PM   #6
2bigalow
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: OC/Ca
Posts: 321
Excellent read, thanks for posting.
2bigalow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 August 2022, 11:58 PM   #7
mongrelnomoad
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Here and there...
Posts: 1,900
Fabulous! Thanks for posting!
mongrelnomoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 12:14 AM   #8
stormshadow
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 516
Thanks for sharing; very good read
stormshadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 01:05 AM   #9
AlexFzh
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 23
Interesting point about anglage. First thing I notice when seeing the movement of a rep VC overseas vs my real one is the lack of 3 dimensional feel. Now I know it’s called the anglage and why they won’t bother doing this for a rep.
AlexFzh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 02:41 AM   #10
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 21,089
Great read, and yes you can see how some brands nowadays do their best to design out anything that takes additional effort. We know Patek Philippe does this to reduce effort, tho Panerai takes the prize for doing the least effort to a movement imho.
__________________
__________________

----> TAMPA Meetup In December 2024 <----
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=13450519

Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school.
www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 03:03 AM   #11
dchang81
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 2,165
Is there a similar article about skeletonization? Seems like everyone and their mom skeletonized their watches with laser beams, diluting the difficult hand done models.
dchang81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 06:47 AM   #12
Mendota
"TRF" Member
 
Mendota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MN
Watch: OP36 Blue 3-6-9
Posts: 2,195
Very interesting article. Thanks for posting! It would be fun to watch some of those artisans create the various parts that were featured in the photographs.
Mendota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 08:27 AM   #13
dchang81
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 2,165
The other thing I don't get is why Patek didn't at least try to put one interior angle just to say hey we can do it too
dchang81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 09:41 AM   #14
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 21,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchang81 View Post
The other thing I don't get is why Patek didn't at least try to put one interior angle just to say hey we can do it too
Have been hoping Patek launches a 'Connoisseur Series', to get back to their heyday in handcraftsmen. There is much lost potential imho. Or at least add a little bit of added effort to the special handcrafted enamel timepieces.
__________________
__________________

----> TAMPA Meetup In December 2024 <----
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=13450519

Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school.
www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 10:29 AM   #15
Ichiran
2024 Pledge Member
 
Ichiran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Near beach
Watch: PB1967
Posts: 8,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchang81 View Post
The other thing I don't get is why Patek didn't at least try to put one interior angle just to say hey we can do it too
Yes they do, but only in the highest grand complications like the 6301 and 5207.

6301P (@SJX)
Patek-Philippe-Grande-Sonnerie-6301P-movement-anglage.jpg

Patek-Philippe-Grande-Sonnerie-6301P-watch-19a.jpg

5207G (@en.worldtempus)
5207.jpg
Ichiran is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 12:30 PM   #16
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 21,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichiran View Post
Yes they do, but only in the highest grand complications like the 6301 and 5207.
Sad, as that means PP will never create a high-quality Calatrava. Also eliminates other possibilities.

Truly do hope the Kid adds a new series. Heck, call it a Heritage Series with all the tried-and-true fanfare of bringing out the typical vintage pieces and their recent auction results. Actually, I don't care what the company's marketing department chooses to call it. The point is we all know, and it's a sad situation.
__________________
__________________

----> TAMPA Meetup In December 2024 <----
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=13450519

Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school.
www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 02:29 PM   #17
Ichiran
2024 Pledge Member
 
Ichiran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Near beach
Watch: PB1967
Posts: 8,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
Sad, as that means PP will never create a high-quality Calatrava. Also eliminates other possibilities.

Truly do hope the Kid adds a new series. Heck, call it a Heritage Series with all the tried-and-true fanfare of bringing out the typical vintage pieces and their recent auction results. Actually, I don't care what the company's marketing department chooses to call it. The point is we all know, and it's a sad situation.
Yes they do for Calatrava, but it's done on the dials of 5089/5077 instead of the anglage behind. "Rare handcrafts" Patek called it.

The engraving, marquetry, guilloché, and enameling are all done by hands. Aren't these stunning?

IMG_20220824_122743_(900_x_510_pixel).jpg
Ichiran is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 08:46 AM   #18
lmdh
2024 Pledge Member
 
lmdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Philippines
Posts: 78
Thanks for sharing!
lmdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 09:59 AM   #19
RolexSimon
"TRF" Member
 
RolexSimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,375
The rise of the Independents is here to stay i hope......
RolexSimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 03:34 PM   #20
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 21,089
So you're saying they don't do anything special for the movement on these special rare handcraft pieces? Do you find that a bit of a let-down having such a glorious dial and basic movement inside instead of the same care they do for their 'best pieces'?

Am glad Patek outsources the dials to be made by experts in their craft, maybe they need to do more of that for movement decoration and craftsmanship? Yes those dials are indeed stunning, and yes other brands outsource such work too.

But, again, what about the movement? Will PP ever make a high-quality Calatrava movement ever again considering the efforts to make these special dials? Let us hope so. Truly would like to see Patek live up to their potential, instead of doing just what is 'good enough'.

But overall, there's lost potential, and that's what i feel is truly a disservice to their customers, enthusiasts, and to some extent the industry too. In the past some of us look up to Patek, now other brands / watchmakers get the attention for their incredible efforts.

Also why i have not bothered looking at PP in many years, whereas decades ago was quite the enthusiast. Had all the lithographs, my AD lost AD-ship and we came to an agreement about the 5110 dealer Wall Clock. i like their magazine too, been getting it since issue 1 and just got whatever issue they just sent out.

Over the past year or so have spoken to various timepiece magazine folks about PP's reduction in quality. Some have said (privately) to me that PP needs to be removed from the 1960s Holy Trinity list (what i call the 'Trinity Trap'). Patek Philippe imho is sliding backward to push more products out the door while other truly independent manufacturers have been pushing horology forward in various directions. This is where Patek desperately needs a new Series of timepieces, because they certainly aren't competitive today imho (until you get to a very high price level PP where you could, instead, have a custom-made timepiece crafted by some very impressive independent watchmakers).

The great news is that Patek helps train watchmakers. We need more of those. Once these craftspeople have a solid skillset....

So my wishes are for PP to succeed, but for today they pretty much have nothing that truly impresses me over what various other smaller independents are doing at the same (or lower) pricing. As best i can remember, it wasn't always that way.

So let's hope my pleas do not fall on deaf ears at Patek Philippe. Am hoping magazine editors and many customers are able to convince the Kid to bring PP back to top-shelf craftsmanship, without regard to cutting corners by rounding edges, etc.

Buuuuuuut since they're pretty much stuck with what they've been doing over the past number of years, and dare not upset current buyers, a new 'top-shelf' Series is probably the only way to market them without upsetting too many of their current customers imho.
__________________
__________________

----> TAMPA Meetup In December 2024 <----
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=13450519

Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school.
www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 04:07 PM   #21
Ichiran
2024 Pledge Member
 
Ichiran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Near beach
Watch: PB1967
Posts: 8,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
So my wishes are for PP to succeed, but for today they pretty much have nothing that truly impresses me over what various other smaller independents are doing at the same (or lower) pricing. As best i can remember, it wasn't always that way.
Simple - just buy what you like. There are many aspects of a watch other than dufour-nian finishing of their work-horse movement. And we don't have to like the same brand, or force ourselves to like any particular brand.
Ichiran is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 04:39 PM   #22
bobernet
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Real Name: Bob
Location: Mountains
Watch: ALS, AP, PP, Rolex
Posts: 2,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
So you're saying they don't do anything special for the movement on these special rare handcraft pieces? Do you find that a bit of a let-down having such a glorious dial and basic movement inside instead of the same care they do for their 'best pieces'?

Am glad Patek outsources the dials to be made by experts in their craft, maybe they need to do more of that for movement decoration and craftsmanship? Yes those dials are indeed stunning, and yes other brands outsource such work too.

But, again, what about the movement? Will PP ever make a high-quality Calatrava movement ever again considering the efforts to make these special dials? Let us hope so. Truly would like to see Patek live up to their potential, instead of doing just what is 'good enough'.

But overall, there's lost potential, and that's what i feel is truly a disservice to their customers, enthusiasts, and to some extent the industry too. In the past some of us look up to Patek, now other brands / watchmakers get the attention for their incredible efforts.

Also why i have not bothered looking at PP in many years, whereas decades ago was quite the enthusiast. Had all the lithographs, my AD lost AD-ship and we came to an agreement about the 5110 dealer Wall Clock. i like their magazine too, been getting it since issue 1 and just got whatever issue they just sent out.

Over the past year or so have spoken to various timepiece magazine folks about PP's reduction in quality. Some have said (privately) to me that PP needs to be removed from the 1960s Holy Trinity list (what i call the 'Trinity Trap'). Patek Philippe imho is sliding backward to push more products out the door while other truly independent manufacturers have been pushing horology forward in various directions. This is where Patek desperately needs a new Series of timepieces, because they certainly aren't competitive today imho (until you get to a very high price level PP where you could, instead, have a custom-made timepiece crafted by some very impressive independent watchmakers).

The great news is that Patek helps train watchmakers. We need more of those. Once these craftspeople have a solid skillset....

So my wishes are for PP to succeed, but for today they pretty much have nothing that truly impresses me over what various other smaller independents are doing at the same (or lower) pricing. As best i can remember, it wasn't always that way.

So let's hope my pleas do not fall on deaf ears at Patek Philippe. Am hoping magazine editors and many customers are able to convince the Kid to bring PP back to top-shelf craftsmanship, without regard to cutting corners by rounding edges, etc.

Buuuuuuut since they're pretty much stuck with what they've been doing over the past number of years, and dare not upset current buyers, a new 'top-shelf' Series is probably the only way to market them without upsetting too many of their current customers imho.

Have you spent any time at all reading about Patek's new movements? Patents? No doubt, in a perfect world, we’d all get bespoke watches, handmade by gray-haired craftsmen, at affordable prices and available when we want. Never the less, in a world of trade offs, Patek is still innovating, and delivering high quality watches in reasonable volumes despite the frenzy of people treating their lowest end steel watches as “grails.”

They’re certainly not perfect, but they’re among the best of the survivors in an industry that nearly died more than once.
bobernet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25 August 2022, 01:26 AM   #23
bobernet
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Real Name: Bob
Location: Mountains
Watch: ALS, AP, PP, Rolex
Posts: 2,988
Imo the best article In many years….

Dupe
bobernet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 August 2022, 04:09 PM   #24
huydoan
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Real Name: mike
Location: sydney
Watch: pp and only pp
Posts: 275
I agree with this article. At first I only know mainstream brands like PP and stick to it, but now move to some independent brands like Kudoke and Felipe Pikullik. The latter is beautifully crafted, especially the skeletonized watch. All is done by hands, and the price is very reasonable.
huydoan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Asset Appeal

Wrist Aficionado

DavidSW Watches

Takuya Watches

OCWatches


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.