Random serial numbers- for or against, and why?

[Roley]

Who is in favor or against the new random serial numbers, and why?

IMO....This may be the reason why Rolex has started with the random serial numbers. Now they can push older stock, and totally confuse the customer. I personally don't like it. ....Now the age of a NEW watch, from an AD will have to be determined by your receipt, and purchase date. Sorry..for being so harsh, but I can't stand this system change.

[nickriebe]

I think there will be "some way" to decipher them as with the old system... if not now, in the future hopefully. Not knowing when your watch was manufactured is rediculous! That way, you know how long its been sitting at the AD in new condition. It would be like buying a "New car" only to find out it is a 2008 that is considered new because it was never purchased... BS!

[sakuraba]

I'm with Nick on this one.

IMO it's only a matter of time until some WIS cracks the code. Knowing the Swiss, there is some method to the madness.

[Roley]

Originally Posted by nickriebe

I think there will be "some way" to decipher them as with the old system... if not now, in the future hopefully. Not knowing when your watch was manufactured is rediculous! That way, you know how long its been sitting at the AD in new condition. It would be like buying a "New car" only to find out it is a 2008 that is considered new because it was never purchased... BS!

Well you will know that the production date was 2010 and after. (Not acceptable for a collector), IMO.

[The GMT Master]

For them - I've never liked serial number hysteria. The guarantee card is proof enough for me, thanks

[padi56]

Originally Posted by The GMT Master

For them - I've never liked serial number hysteria. The guarantee card is proof enough for me, thanks

Have to agree and lets get rid of this silly case date nonsense it was only a Internet code anyway.And just a rough indication when a case was stamped and not necessarily when a fully assembled watch for shipment to AD for sale.Same for the clasp codes its a clasp code nothing more nothing less just a code clasps don't go off and have no sell by date.And today Rolex must make millions of them and all the same in the older type clasp except for a few letters on the clasp.And cannot think of any other high end brand where all the this hysteria in must have the latest case date stamp.

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree and lets get rid of this silly case date nonsense it was only a Internet code anyway. And cannot think of any other high end brand where all the this hysteria in must have the latest case date stamp.

turned out to have been in stock on the dealer's shelf for five years, (VERY possible), and its timing started deteriorating two days after the warranty expired showing it needed a full service right away?

What if the price had gone up by 35% during the time it was sitting on the shelf, and thus you paid MORE than its original MSRP, rather than getting the 'discount' you thought you bargained for?

And what if, unbeknownst to you, Rolex had in the time since it was made, included a small change in the dial or the movement that was considered desirable by the Rolex community, and that reduced the value of your 'new' five-year-old watch by 30 or 40%?

Would you still be completely OK with it all?

[rolexsubdate]

random serial numbers show an unorganized approach and lack of a systematic approach .....

How are they protecting against 2 watches unwitingly have the same random# assigned to them ....

What random# generatotr are they using???

[springbar]

Originally Posted by rolexsubdate

random serial numbers show an unorganized approach and lack of a systematic approach .....

How are they protecting against 2 watches unwitingly have the same random# assigned to them ....

What random# generatotr are they using???

This is an easily solved problem. Rolex will have either

1) come up with a pseudorandom algorithm designed not to repeat (and that could even be re-seeded periodically if they wanted to throw off the codebreakers), or

2) taken a serial list of millions of numbers and randomized their order, like shuffling a deck of cards, and is going down the list, or

3) both.

Good luck cracking the code if it's the second case.

[springbar]

Originally Posted by chris russell

What if the price had gone up by 35% during the time it was sitting on the shelf, and thus you paid MORE than its original MSRP, rather than getting the 'discount' you thought you bargained for?

A price hike is a price hike. Why should or would existing inventory be exempt?

I have purchased a watch for a price that, after discount, still exceeded its MSRP when it first went in the case. If I'd wanted the old price I should have bought it five years ago.

Everything works that way.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Chris russell

turned out to have been in stock on the dealer's shelf for five years, (VERY possible), and its timing started deteriorating two days after the warranty expired showing it needed a full service right away?

What if the price had gone up by 35% during the time it was sitting on the shelf, and thus you paid MORE than its original MSRP, rather than getting the 'discount' you thought you bargained for?

And what if, unbeknownst to you, Rolex had in the time since it was made, included a small change in the dial or the movement that was considered desirable by the Rolex community, and that reduced the value of your 'new' five-year-old watch by 30 or 40%?

Would you still be completely OK with it all?

Lets be perfectly honest here Chris most of the Rolex watches especially sports types are not long enough at ADs to gather dust most are gone as soon as AD gets them in.Its only the slower moving models might be at ADs a bit longer,I wonder if brands like Patek get this silly case date nonsense.And after being around Rolex watches for over 30 years most Rolex watches change little in decades.Rolex watches will always command a high resale value no matter what the case date stamp.And IMHO owning Rolex watches is not all about price,its about owning one of the finest mechanical watches made today.

[tgoose1]

Makes perfect sense for Rolex, and eliminates sales confusion and inventory shuffling at the AD. Remember, Rolex is a manufacturer who's sells new product thru authorized Rolex retail dealers. Anything impeding the supply chain ultimately slows business revenue back to the home base.

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by padi56

Lets be perfectly honest here Chris most of the Rolex watches especially sports types are not long enough at ADs to gather dust most are gone as soon as AD gets them in. Its only the slower moving models might be at ADs a bit longer. Rolex watches will always command a high resale value no matter what the case date stamp.

However, you won't have to look very far on this very Forum for a post from a disgruntled recipient of a gift Rolex that his wife was led to believe was new, but turned out to be several years old. And she indeed paid more than the watch's original MSRP, despite being told she was getting a 'discount'.

I can absolutely GUARANTEE that tt Rolexes, and especially gold Rolexes, COMMONLY stay in inventory for five or MORE years before moving. If you can give me a logical reason why the customer should be PREVENTED from knowing the production date of a watch he/she is spending hard-earned money on, I will shut up. But we know that won't happen because there is none. I can accept that the vast majority of customers may not care, and that's their prerogative, but to PREVENT me from knowing, when service costs $800? Can't happen.

So, seriously, Padi, please answer the question.

[DSJ]

Originally Posted by padi56

Lets be perfectly honest here Chris most of the Rolex watches especially sports types are not long enough at ADs to gather dust most are gone as soon as AD gets them in.

Though my F-Series Explorer II (with clasp code CL6) was first sold in Jan 2008. It has an older-style warranty card and older style box, so it was likely assembled YEARS (3+) before initial purchase.

(Luckily the original owner didn't like it, returned it shortly afterwards, paid a restocking and I got a screaming deal - Thanks "Dr. Tom!" The only thing missing was the Swimpruf tag and I called Dr Tom to try and recover - no luck.)

[Dr.Brian]

Originally Posted by chris russell

turned out to have been in stock on the dealer's shelf for five years, (VERY possible), and its timing started deteriorating two days after the warranty expired showing it needed a full service right away?

What if the price had gone up by 35% during the time it was sitting on the shelf, and thus you paid MORE than its original MSRP, rather than getting the 'discount' you thought you bargained for?

And what if, unbeknownst to you, Rolex had in the time since it was made, included a small change in the dial or the movement that was considered desirable by the Rolex community, and that reduced the value of your 'new' five-year-old watch by 30 or 40%?

Would you still be completely OK with it all?

It's warrantied for two years from purchase. It doesn't matter if it is 2 months since production or 2 years. There is already confusion with when the solid gold watches were produced. I think the tables really only apply to the high turn over steel models anyway, and even than, they are a guideline only. How do we know that a Z was put together in early 2007 or late 2008. Why not 2009? No one but rolex knows, and they don't say. They do guarantee it for 2 years from the time of purchase though. That's good enough for me. Does it have the most modern movement, etc? Yes? Fine. The serial number means nothing.
BTW the analogy to cars is false as they would not survive years of non use, and they also change significantly each year. A Rolex doesn't have that problem.
If ADs really have several dozen Rolex watches in the back safe collecting dust for several years, they won't be around long anyway.
I don't see this as a problem. The second hand and/or gray market may have some problems as they cannot prove age with non existent or unfilled paperwork. That's their problem. Perhaps they will have to throw in a professional exam, lube and pressure check with each watch. That would probably benefit everyone in the long run anyway. Price goes up a couple hundred, so what? I expect that folks will start faking sales slips now, to try to prove their watch is "nearly new". No original papers = no known age. Watches with original stamped papers and confirmatory sales documentation will probably have a bit more value. I bought a Z SD in late 09, it was a pristine safe queen, tight, unmarred and apparently untouched. Two M's I looked at were obviously a bit shopworn, one more than the other. Who got the new watch? When was mine assembled? Who's to say that it was not made in 2009 from the last run of some "old" cases? When did production of the SD really stop? How long are watches waiting fully assembled in Geneva before they go out? What about the really low volume sellers? No one knows. Well someone does, but they're not talking. Now they really don't have to. They could offer a service to give you the year of original sale if they wanted. It could generate some $$. Send the watch to them and for $100 they date the serial number. And while it's here, if you get a full service, we give you the date certification for free...
This might hurt gray market sales. Good strategy from Geneva.

[chris russell]

to obscure the true age of product in stock. As I have mentioned a couple times before on this forum, this means that in the long run you could be offered a watch that is 2, 3 or more years old, (and of course 2, 3 or more price-increases old), and quoted new pricing on it. Where is the advantage to you, the customer who is shelling out the dinero, in that?

IF there is no actual change to the product specification in that time, (which in fact is unlikely since Rolex regularly changes hands, dials, movements, etc., during production of the same model), then I might not have a problem buying one that has been around for a year or three. BUT I sure as hell don't want the price to be based on the CURRENT production year! Where is the value added that would justify that while the product has been sitting on the shelf with its lubricants aging?

As I have also mentioned I'm not even sure it's legal, at least in North America, for Rolex to make the production dates of its products unavailable or undecipherable to the customer. I shall have to investigate that one. I'm a manufacturer of high-end consumer products, and I know it would not be legal for me.

[TheDude]

Well, the new policy means that in the future, pieces will need to have real provenance rather than "provenance through deduction". If a collector wants to know the year, he'll need to see the papers... in other words -real provenance-.

We won't be able to reason that "this watch is okay because the condition, or feature, or bit is period accurate" for the SN in question.


Or... perhaps it is reasonable to assume that Rolex is keeping good records now in the digital age. Perhaps Rolex will be able to confirm 100% of SN queries about watches built from 2010 on...

[mike]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Well, the new policy means that in the future, pieces will need to have real provenance rather than "provenance through deduction". If a collector wants to know the year, he'll need to see the papers... in other words -real provenance-.

We won't be able to reason that "this watch is okay because the condition, or feature, or bit is period accurate" for the SN in question.


Or... perhaps it is reasonable to assume that Rolex is keeping good records now in the digital age. Perhaps Rolex will be able to confirm 100% of SN queries about watches built from 2010 on...

And there in lies the problem for the next generation of collector.

[BigWatchFan]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Perhaps Rolex will be able to confirm 100% of SN queries about watches built from 2010 on...

They may be able to confirm 100% of the queries but do they really share that info?? In other words, if I give Rolex a serial number, will they respond and give me its date of manufacture? If so, then good for them and no harm done.

For my part, I'd be AMAZED if they did ANYTHING resembling that, given their penchant for secrecy!

[jcherskine]

I would be against random serial numbers for reasons already stated.
Also, I was contacted by a new member of TRF who had bought a "brand new" Rolex in February 2010.
This Rolex had an M serial number, meaning it had probably sat around for 3 years, before being purchased. Hence the reason I questioned why it was being sold as "brand new"
At least the present method allows for accuracy, where the age of the watch is in question.

[nauticajoe]

Not a fan of the random serials.

As many have mentioned, its another way for both Rolex & the AD to push the old inventory.

[Tools]

I agree with Padi...

The idea that a watch has been sitting for some amount of time, and is, therefore, less desireable than another is ludicrous, or at the very least, silly..

No other watchmaker on the planet has to put up with the silliness about "how old is your watch", or even more recently "What series is your Rolex?".. as if one number is less worthy than another..

If you want certain "features" in your watch, then buy the features, not a number.......

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by Tools

I agree with Padi...

The idea that a watch has been sitting for some amount of time, and is, therefore, less desireable than another is ludicrous, or at the very least, silly..

No other watchmaker on the planet has to put up with the silliness about "how old is your watch", or even more recently "What series is your Rolex?".. as if one number is less worthy than another..

As a 'for instance', we all know that the Daytona has had hand and dial changes, ('fat hands', etc.), since it was introduced in 2000. If you happened to be in the market for a Daytona, and the one the dealer offered you at present MSRP less any discount you could negotiate, you could see it was the 'skinny hands', and had originally been priced thousands less; would you grab that one rather than the one across town that you could see was years newer in features, at the same price? If you say you would, I would say you were being deliberately disingenuous.

The reason no other watchmaker has to 'put up with the silliness' of 'how old is your watch' is because NO other watchmaker enjoys the popularity and the desirability, nor the close following of its every new feature and design change, however slight, as Rolex. I can absolutely guarantee you that every other watch manufacturer on the planet would gladly trade their level of popularity and yearly sales for Rolex's, even if it meant having to 'put up with' people tracking their serial numbers for production dates and small changes. Trust me on that.

[springbar]

Originally Posted by chris russell

As a 'for instance', we all know that the Daytona has had hand and dial changes, ('fat hands', etc.), since it was introduced in 2000. If you happened to be in the market for a Daytona, and the one the dealer offered you at present MSRP less any discount you could negotiate, you could see it was the 'skinny hands', and had originally been priced thousands less; would you grab that one rather than the one across town that you could see was years newer in features, at the same price? If you say you would, I would say you were being deliberately disingenuous.

A few months ago, I knowingly bought a new, old stock non-COSC 14060M instead of the new model with its COSC certification and engraved rehaut - and for more than its original MSRP. Do you think I'm being deliberately disingenuous?

Price and availability is subject to change. The number on the price tag is today's price - not a guarantee of the sale price five years in the future. If you must have it at today's price, buy it today.

This is true of all products everywhere.

[Speed]

Originally Posted by chris russell

.

The reason no other watchmaker has to 'put up with the silliness' of 'how old is your watch' is because NO other watchmaker enjoys the popularity and the desirability, nor the close following of its every new feature and design change, however slight, as Rolex. I can absolutely guarantee you that every other watch manufacturer on the planet would gladly trade their level of popularity and yearly sales for Rolex's, even if it meant having to 'put up with' people tracking their serial numbers for production dates and small changes. Trust me on that.

Very well said Chris!!!

[MagedMS]

The advantage of Rnd SN. is for Rolex and its dealers..
No advantage for the user (who pays money..) So my opinion is

ROLEX,,, you have to give us some sort of DECODING the new Rnd SN.

[TempoKing]

As a seller I love the new system !

As a buyer (in a few years) I will not know how old is the watch that I am buying
if it was sold with an open warranty (pre-owned) or if it has been in stock for 6 years.
Definately a problem when the Rolex you want is of high value.

On the other hand, I have never asked how old is a Patek 5070,
I am just glad to have found it...funny how we condition our minds.

[TheDude]

I actually think it is more of an anti-counterfeit or anti-frankenwatch initiative.


It should make it far harder to move a special collectible in the future without real provenance.


Let's present a hypothetical example. Let's say the GMT-IIc goes from green to red next year, and the greens become highly collectible at some point in the future. At that point, it would become difficult to determine if a Z, M, V, etc... is from pre-2010, or randomly assigned after 2010. It would be really hard to tell if a lucky recipient of a Z, M, V, etc... "red" GMT put a green dial and handset in.

Provenance would be required to back up the increased value of any collectible model such as this.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by TheDude

I actually think it is more of an anti-counterfeit or anti-frankenwatch initiative.


It should make it far harder to move a special collectible in the future without real provenance.


Let's present a hypothetical example. Let's say the GMT-IIc goes from green to red next year, and the greens become highly collectible at some point in the future. At that point, it would become difficult to determine if a Z, M, V, etc... is from pre-2010, or randomly assigned after 2010. It would be really hard to tell if a lucky recipient of a Z, M, V, etc... "red" GMT put a green dial and handset in.

Provenance would be required to back up the increased value of any collectible model such as this.

Well first would doubt if any modern day Rolex will become collectible far too many around.Perhaps in 30 odd years a few modem day Rolex will command perhaps a slight premium price no matter what the case stamp.When I buy a watch I don't buy a case stamp I buy the watch because I want too.When you go and buy watches like Patek you are not bothered by the stupid case nonsense you buy the watch.

[Speed]

As a relatively new WIS ( < 2 years ) I have purchased most of my watches used.

I like the series designations because they help ID certain features - design or otherwise. I am not as concened about the NOS issue but I like knowing as much about a watch as possible.

At the end if the day, I am not in favor of the random serials