I love the sound of a Taser in the morning!

[joeychitwood]

I'm in Exam Room 7 trying to interview a patient while a drugged-out whack-job in Room 8 rants and raves about the unfairness of "the system" and cops in general. The noise increases and soon the sound of furniture being thrown makes it harder to carry on a professional discussion with the little old lady I'm seeing.

Wait for it. Just another few seconds.......SNAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPP-CRAAACCCKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!

Ah yes! The reassuring sound of our electric friend, the Taser, followed quickly by a thud on the floor and brief gutteral inhuman moaning. No more furniture flying around the room. No more threats to the nurses. Just quiet and compliance. Best of all, there's no lingering odor of CS gas or pepper spray in the room.

Next patient!

[Numismatist]

I'll bet if it weren't for HIPAA, you could write a REALLY good book!!!

[theloxmyth]

Originally Posted by Numismatist

I'll bet if it weren't for HIPAA, you could write a REALLY good book!!!

HIPAA is MY friend!

Gotta love having double locks on patient info storage areas including EVERYONE'S desk peds.

[Numismatist]

Originally Posted by theloxmyth

HIPAA is MY friend!

Gotta love having double locks on patient info storage areas including EVERYONE'S desk peds.

Everyone makes money in medicine

[theloxmyth]

Originally Posted by Numismatist

Everyone makes money in medicine

[Dilemma]

all your Sicilian cousins

What about 'em?

[Mosco]

Gotta love it!

Man, I second Chris on that one - that book would be sweet.

[Dilemma]

Just curious, HCMC??

[sakuraba]

One of the best attitude altering inventions ever, Doc!

[joeychitwood]

Originally Posted by Dilemma

Just curious, HCMC??

St. Mary's Hospital, Detroit Lakes.

Originally Posted by Numismatist

I'll bet if it weren't for HIPAA, you could write a REALLY good book!!!

Picture four firefighters in full turn-out gear wielding a six-foot bolt cutter trying to chip away at a quarter-inch hardened steel washer stuck on the base of a guys erect penis. (Arterial inflow pressure greater than venous outflow pressure equals stuck washer.)

Me: "Why do you have a coroner's toe tag tattooed on your foot?"
Patient: "So they can identify my body when I'm dead." Duh!

Me: "So how exactly did that avocado (or perfume bottle, lightbulb, vibrator or cucumber) get stuck in your rectum?"
Patient: "I sat on it after my shower."
Me: "OK."

On my very first shift after residency, an angry lesbian who hated men pulled a Ruger pistol on me and said she was going to kill me and then herself. I talked her into setting the gun down so we could talk, and when she did, I grabbed the gun and led her out of the room. The nurses, whom I had just met that night, recoiled and said, "Oh my God! He's got a gun!"

[sakuraba]

How you survive a day in the ER escapes me, Doc.

[Gladius]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

Me: "So how exactly did that avocado (or perfume bottle, lightbulb, vibrator or cucumber) get stuck in your rectum?"
Patient: "I sat on it after my shower."
Me: "OK."

It's amazing how common this is...

[chris russell]

situations, but unfortunately, SOME police get 'taser-happy' and end up using them just to punish some driver who gets 'lippy' during a traffic-stop, or on 80+-year-old grandmothers in wheelchairs who won't 'comply', or on somebody who's already unconscious in a diabetic coma, because he won't obey an order to 'get up off the ground', and these people can get 'tased' 5 or 10 times or more. Additional problem is a LOT of people wind up DEAD during or after a confrontation with a taser-wielding cop. NOT funny.

[Numismatist]

.

[joeychitwood]

Originally Posted by chris russell

... unfortunately, SOME police get 'taser-happy' and end up using them just to punish some driver who gets 'lippy' during a traffic-stop, or on 80+-year-old grandmothers in wheelchairs who won't 'comply', or on somebody who's already unconscious in a diabetic coma, because he won't obey an order to 'get up off the ground', and these people can get 'tased' 5 or 10 times or more. Additional problem is a LOT of people wind up DEAD during or after a confrontation with a taser-wielding cop. NOT funny.

Deaths supposedly associated with Tasers are controversial, if you read the medical literature. One of my good friends, Dr. Jeff Ho at Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis, who is also a licensed police officer (as was I for 13 years) has studied alledged Taser deaths and injuries extensively, and very few have actually been linked directly to the Taser. They have saved countless injuries and deaths when compared to what would have happened had the perpetrator been allowed to continue his/her assault or other behavior.

Saying Tasers are bad is like saying batons, guns or fists are bad. It's a tool, to be used appropriately as it was this morning. The Taser saved my staff from possible serious injury, and no amount of whining will change my mind that they are useful and effective. Given the other methods required to subdue a guy in a meth rage, the Taser is safe and humane. Sorry.

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

Deaths supposedly associated with Tasers are controversial, if you read the medical literature. One of my good friends, Dr. Jeff Ho at Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis, who is also a licensed police officer (as was I for 13 years) has studied alledged Taser deaths and injuries extensively, and very few have actually been linked directly to the Taser. They have saved countless injuries and deaths when compared to what would have happened had the perpetrator been allowed to continue his/her assault or other behavior.

The Taser saved my staff from possible serious injury, and no amount of whining will change my mind that they are useful and effective. Sorry.

'whining' in your reponse to it, your second post amounted to a personal attack on me and a straightforward alternative point of view. That, plus your inappropriate 'humorous' use of a reference to the film 'Apocalypse Now', and Robert Duvall's quote, 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning', reveals your actual disinterest in overall public safety in preference to a combative, no-prisoners stance framing of your own personal point of view, in opposition those who might prefer a more measured stance. Unfortunately, that attitude pretty much defines the type of person who tends to get 'lippy' in 'discussions' with authority figures and ends up on the wrong end of a taser when said authority figure 'overreacts' to a perception of 'attitude' on his/her part. That kind of person seldom appreciates the potential for abuse by authority until it comes home to roost in his/her own back yard.

Beyond that, in your use of the terms, 'Deaths supposedly linked to tasers', and 'very few have actually been linked', and 'alledged', (sic), you closely parrot the public stance of the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in these things proliferating like locusts. It doesn't jibe with the emerging points of view of judges and public safety officials all over the continent and the world who recognize that there remains the question of overall effect on the safety of the public when the weapon is used inappropriately, and whether they are in fact a net plus to society. They realize that police personnel are human beings, no better and no worse than the rest of the public, and not one bit less likely to misuse a 'tool' when emotions come into play, and not one iota less likely to lie about it in the aftermath. The instances I quoted in my first post are actual events in the public record. I could go on for fifty pages listing similar cases of abuse of the weapon that are also in the public recorord, and those are only the ones that have made it into the media, which is likely to be far less than 1% of the actual total. I suspect you may know that as well as I do, unwilling though you may be to admit it.

I chair the board of directors of a community safety agency, which includes members of the executive level of the police force, so don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm writing about. I'm involved with promoting public safety myself on that and two other levels in my own community. That's the only priority I have on this subject. Your own controversial and confrontational presentation of this topic of discussion in your posts reveals otherwise about yourself. This $#!t still isn't funny. Sorry.

[ParisDakarBmw]

Originally Posted by chris russell

'whining' in your reponse to it, your second post amounted to a personal attack on me and a straightforward alternative point of view. That, plus your inappropriate 'humorous' use of a reference to the film 'Apocalypse Now', and Robert Duvall's quote, 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning', reveals your actual disinterest in overall public safety in preference to a combative, no-prisoners stance framing of your own personal point of view, in opposition those who might prefer a more measured stance. Unfortunately, that attitude pretty much defines the type of person who tends to get 'lippy' in 'discussions' with authority figures and ends up on the wrong end of a taser when said authority figure 'overreacts' to a perception of 'attitude' on his/her part. That kind of person seldom appreciates the potential for abuse by authority until it comes home to roost in his/her own back yard.

Beyond that, in your use of the terms, 'Deaths supposedly linked to tasers', and 'very few have actually been linked', and 'alledged', (sic), you closely parrot the public stance of the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in these things proliferating like locusts. It doesn't jibe with the emerging points of view of judges and public safety officials all over the continent and the world who recognize that there remains the question of overall effect on the safety of the public when the weapon is used inappropriately, and whether they are in fact a net plus to society. They realize that police personnel are human beings, no better and no worse than the rest of the public, and not one bit less likely to misuse a 'tool' when emotions come into play, and not one iota less likely to lie about it in the aftermath. The instances I quoted in my first post are actual events in the public record. I could go on for fifty pages listing similar cases of abuse of the weapon that are also in the public recorord, and those are only the ones that have made it into the media, which is likely to be far less than 1% of the actual total. I suspect you may know that as well as I do, unwilling though you may be to admit it.

I chair the board of directors of a community safety agency, which includes members of the executive level of the police force, so don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm writing about. I'm involved with promoting public safety myself on that and two other levels in my own community. That's the only priority I have on this subject. Your own controversial and confrontational presentation of this topic of discussion in your posts reveals otherwise about yourself. This $#!t still isn't funny. Sorry.

Your able to think as you wish, and you can have your opinion. I won't even say that some officers don't use excessive force sometimes, and those cases are truly disturbing, but there are emerging regulations to handle the use of force.

The particular tool in question has been used to save countless lives, and end hostile situations. Of course human life is the most important thing. I do think that a person who argues the use of the most modern "less lethal devices" has a limited point. If someone has already met the criteria on the use of force continuim, and has to be handled, why would you prefer a lethal device instead?

If someone is in a psychotic state, and shows the ability to harm themselves, and others, why not use a less lethal device? What other alternative would you suggest? Lock them in the room, and come back 6 hours later? No. How about allowing the person to wreck the entire emergency room so other people are denied treatment? No. How about use the least amount of force to subdue the person, and document the event for the routine internal review? If there is a magic whistle you know of that calms the violent person upon hearing it..........I'd like to know!

If my family members ever end up having less lethal devices used on them, rather than lethal force, so be it. Of course the officer should never do it to punish a person, and that is a different issue. The OP was talking about an incident that ended without anyone hurt, killed, and he was happy it ended quick.

Some people don't like police. That's fine. Some people fail to see that in years past, people would have been lucky to live to see the next day because the devices were not available, and ended worse.

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by ParisDakarBmw

Your able to think as you wish, and you can have your opinion. I won't even say that some officers don't use excessive force sometimes, and those cases are truly disturbing, but there are emerging regulations to handle the use of force.

The particular tool in question has been used to save countless lives, and end hostile situations. Of course human life is the most important thing. I do think that a person who argues the use of the most modern "less lethal devices" has a limited point. If someone has already met the criteria on the use of force continuim, and has to be handled, why would you prefer a lethal device instead?

If someone is in a psychotic state, and shows the ability to harm themselves, and others, why not use a less lethal device? What other alternative would you suggest? Lock them in the room, and come back 6 hours later? No. How about allowing the person to wreck the entire emergency room so other people are denied treatment? No. How about use the least amount of force to subdue the person, and document the event for the routine internal review? If there is a magic whistle you know of that calms the violent person upon hearing it..........I'd like to know!

If my family members ever end up having less lethal devices used on them, rather than lethal force, so be it. Of course the officer should never do it to punish a person, and that is a different issue. The OP was talking about an incident that ended without anyone hurt, killed, and he was happy it ended quick.

Some people don't like police. That's fine. Some people fail to see that in years past, people would have been lucky to live to see the next day because the devices were not available, and ended worse.

Two things: First, I wasn't writing to you. Second, as you will see elsewhere in this thread, I never said there was no appropriate use for this weapon. In fact I recognize that it can be a useful, mostly non-lethal tool in the right circumstances. The issue I brought up was entirely to do with the fact it is used much more often inappropriately, and that I objected to the jovial, har-de-har stance of some of the posts here, including the original one. These things are weapons, plain and simple. Neither their inappropriate 'deployment', nor even their appropriate use, falls into any context that I see as 'funny'. That's pretty much it.

[joeychitwood]

Originally Posted by chris russell

'whining' in your reponse to it, your second post amounted to a personal attack on me and a straightforward alternative point of view. That, plus your inappropriate 'humorous' use of a reference to the film 'Apocalypse Now', and Robert Duvall's quote, 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning', reveals your actual disinterest in overall public safety in preference to a combative, no-prisoners stance framing of your own personal point of view, in opposition those who might prefer a more measured stance. Unfortunately, that attitude pretty much defines the type of person who tends to get 'lippy' in 'discussions' with authority figures and ends up on the wrong end of a taser when said authority figure 'overreacts' to a perception of 'attitude' on his/her part. That kind of person seldom appreciates the potential for abuse by authority until it comes home to roost in his/her own back yard.

Beyond that, in your use of the terms, 'Deaths supposedly linked to tasers', and 'very few have actually been linked', and 'alledged', (sic), you closely parrot the public stance of the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in these things proliferating like locusts. It doesn't jibe with the emerging points of view of judges and public safety officials all over the continent and the world who recognize that there remains the question of overall effect on the safety of the public when the weapon is used inappropriately, and whether they are in fact a net plus to society. They realize that police personnel are human beings, no better and no worse than the rest of the public, and not one bit less likely to misuse a 'tool' when emotions come into play, and not one iota less likely to lie about it in the aftermath. The instances I quoted in my first post are actual events in the public record. I could go on for fifty pages listing similar cases of abuse of the weapon that are also in the public record, and those are only the ones that have made it into the media, which is likely to be far less than 1% of the actual total. I suspect you may know that as well as I do, unwilling though you may be to admit it.

I chair the board of directors of a community safety agency, which includes members of the executive level of the police force, so don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm writing about. I'm involved with promoting public safety myself on that and two other levels in my own community. That's the only priority I have on this subject. Your own controversial and confrontational presentation of this topic of discussion in your posts reveals otherwise about yourself. This $#!t still isn't funny. Sorry.

A little bit sensitive, huh?

[ParisDakarBmw]

My police department gives us a "hole puncher" (last resort, and I appreciate the other gadgets).

The baton is effective, but pitty the people on the other end. I've only had to raise the device a few times, and give one last warning. Thank god they listened, because I was 2 nano pixels from using the thing. I'd rather have a single solid strike to a meaty portion, than 15 pathetic strikes. It looks worse, and only opens the officer up to a longer fight.

The OC spray is no walk in the park. It falls in the "less Lethal" assortment of tools. It can cause death, and must be used correctly. The past 10 years have been good for the advancement of ethical policing practices. We have to write extensive reports every time we put hands on a person. That report is reviewed by all command staff, and kept on the officers file. Citizen statements are taken if they witness the event, and that's a good thing.

The OC spray could cause issues if the person is obese, or has already pushed their heart past it's breaking point. Most of the deaths are unfortunate, but would have been handled with lethal force 30 years ago.

I hate to see anyone use these methods on citizens for punitive action. I've only seen that on TV, and I just shake my head every time. No need to abuse people.

On the flip side, the public leaves it up to the police to keep them safe. If we do nothing, and someone get's hurt, the police didn't do the job. That's just as bad.

The tazer is used by our SWAT team, and sherriff's department. We don't have them yet. I've seen people get zapped, and it takes the fight out of them. It is very effective.

They also have beanbag rounds that are "less lethal". They also have their place, but wouldn't hope to see punitive actions with that device!

Back in the day a flashlight, or giant baton to the head were the most effective methods for dangerous people. (well before my time)

We don't hog tie people any more, or use a choke method, and have a billion hours of training on how to properly treat people in any condition. I like the new policing tactics, and think they protect us just as much.

My favorite crazy scenario was a man who inserted a light bulb where the sun doesn't shine......It broke, and he almost blead to death before the ambulance got there. I'm glad the guy lived, but WTF????????

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by ParisDakarBmw

I hate to see anyone use these methods on citizens for punitive action. I've only seen that on TV, and I just shake my head every time. No need to abuse people.

They also have beanbag rounds that are "less lethal". They also have their place, but wouldn't hope to see punitive actions with that device!

nor the duty of the police to PUNISH ANYONE. That is the sole domain of the courts. If the police resort to punishment, they are BREAKING THE LAW, and probably on a far more serious level that the alleged offense of the suspect.
I'm pleased to see you recognize that. In my opinion, it should be the first and the last thing police recruits learn in their training. sort of like the Hippocratic oath, 'First, do no harm': 'Police may Never Punish'.

[theloxmyth]

Originally Posted by chris russell

I'm pleased to see you recognize that. In my opinion, it should be the first and the last thing police recruits learn in their training. sort of like the Hippocratic oath, 'First, do no harm': 'Police may Never Punish'.

Too bad that they're human (LEOs) and filled with emotions.

Often times, emotions overwhelm duty to the law.

Ask me how I know.

[Dr.Brian]

10 years ago, the guy raging in the ED would have been wrestled down by several staff, physically restrained, and than chemically restrained. He, and several of the staff would likely have been injured in the process, possibly severely. The fact that there is now a tool to limit those at risk to the psycho is a big win in my book. If your threatening staff and innocent and/or helpless patients with a chair, etc. you better expect to go down hard.
I love the smell of a Bovie in the morning!

[ParisDakarBmw]

Originally Posted by chris russell

nor the duty of the police to PUNISH ANYONE. That is the sole domain of the courts. If the police resort to punishment, they are BREAKING THE LAW, and probably on a far more serious level that the alleged offense of the suspect.
I'm pleased to see you recognize that. In my opinion, it should be the first and the last thing police recruits learn in their training. sort of like the Hippocratic oath, 'First, do no harm': 'Police may Never Punish'.

Chris.......Your blanket statement is what I actually take issue with. You and I walk the streets in our community, and would take offense to any law enforcement officer abusing the delicate balance between life, and death. I agree that it is up to the legal system to set the punishments. As a police officer, I take my oath serious, and treat people as I would hope to be treated.

The statement made leads one to believe that all police are violating human rights by abusing innocent people with less lethal devices.

I could make a comment about most people being criminals and out to harm the general public, but that would be rediculous. You take a personal stance against law enforcement, and think they are just out to harm, but I would find you shaking under your bed if police were absent for a month, and the worst of society was allowed to run the globe with no law.

I think your mind would change if you had to deal with criminals in your own space, and had nobody to call.

[CoopJr]

Tase now ...ask questions later!

[Dilemma]

I was waiting in line outside First Avenue about a year ago waiting for the doors to open up. Evanescence was playing.

Anyway, this dude comes wheeling around the corner on a bicycle trying to evade the transit LEO that is in hot pursuit with his vehicle. The squad pulls in front of the guy on the bike forcing him to make a quick stop. The LEO exits the car with his tazer at the ready. The guy on the bike decides to make another run for it, and it happens. The the LEO shoots his tazer at the guy just as he is getting up some speed.

The guy on the bike went down like a sack of wet cement. He was flopping around on the pavement like a crappie. The LEO told him,

"Son, just stay down" but the moron would NOT lsiten.

So, he lights him up a second time. THIS time the guy was spent and just gave up.

Naturally all of us watching this drama unfold got quite a kick out of it.

Later in the evening after the show, I walked by two girls dressed in full Goth costumes both puking in a trash can. Youth,,,,,,

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by Dilemma

I was waiting in line outside First Avenue about a year ago waiting for the doors to open up. Evanescence was playing.

Anyway, this dude comes wheeling around the corner on a bicycle trying to evade the transit LEO that is in hot pursuit with his vehicle. The squad pulls in front of the guy on the bike forcing him to make a quick stop. The LEO exits the car with his tazer at the ready. The guy on the bike decides to make another run for it, and it happens. The the LEO shoots his tazer at the guy just as he is getting up some speed.

The guy on the bike went down like a sack of wet cement. He was flopping around on the pavement like a crappie. The LEO told him,

"Son, just stay down" but the moron would NOT lsiten.

So, he lights him up a second time. THIS time the guy was spent and just gave up.

Naturally all of us watching this drama unfold got quite a kick out of it.

What you witnessed was a completely uncalled-for and unethical use of a dangerous weapon, according to more and more judges and public safety officials all over the continent. They say this weapon should ONLY be used in case of an actual threat to the officer's or the public's physical safety. Its use for non-threats should be against the law everywhere, if it isn't already. Your obvious amusement at the abuse of authority is completely inappropriate and irresponsible.

[SSD]

It isn't the TASER that kills folks. In fact, Taser International, I have been told, have never been successfully sued.

It is normally the drugs in the suspect's system that caused the cardiac issues, sometimes coupled with positional asphyxia and/or other side effects of police intervention. There have been accusations of OC spray and other non-lethal gases killing folks, too. Medical and coroner's examinations reveal this. One such example is a Gwinnett County Georgia jail inmate who dies several years ago in custody after being tased. The investigation revealed it was the cocaine in his system that led to his death.

Let's not forget it is the behavior of the suspect that causes the police reaction in these cases. Caused by drugs, mental issues or whatever else, their actions require the measures police undertake to do their jobs. The public require us to protect them in both the short and long term from these individuals. It is better to employ non-lethal or less-lethal techniques and equipment and take the chance of hurting the suspect to stop the threat than to get hurt or allow some citizen to be hurt.

I personally like having the option to NOT kill or injure someone in order to bring them under control. And I don't even have a Taser... But I have personally seen many instances where the use of deadly force could have been quite appropriate, but it didn't get employed because there were better options.

I feel there are a lot of angry suspects still alive to complain today because the police didn't have to kill them. I would much rather them be alive: that's our job, isn't it?

OH, BTW- I hate OC!!! I will not use it until I am willing to take the whole hit myself (yeah- you can still function, it just ain't easy). YUK! Nasty smell and taste, and unlike electricity it is truly the gift that keeps on giving LOL!!!

If I ever go to the ER, I certainly hope someone like Doc Chitwood is there to take care of me!

[chris russell]

Originally Posted by SSD

It isn't the TASER that kills folks. In fact, Taser International, I have been told, have never been successfully sued.

Partly because they have lots and lots of money to combat lawsuits with. But in essence I agree with you, it's not the responsibility of the taser manufacturer when the weapon is used abusively and/or inappropriately. I'm not here to say that a taser never has an appropriate application. I'm fully aware that there are dangerous people out there who need to be subdued, preferably without killing them, before they hurt or kill someone else. Unfortunately, even the briefest and most casual review of the public record will reveal that the weapon has been and is being used highly abusively and inappropriately every single day in every city in the country. That's the problem. And it is still, not funny.

[joeychitwood]

Allowing a patient with methamphetamine-induced psychosis and agitation to continue their almost super-human physical activity can result in heart attack, stroke, seizures, ultra-fast heartbeat, high body temperature and death. The options for subduing such a patient are severely limited. Their strength is legendary. Fighting and physically restraining the person can actually cause the above problems. Medications work over time, but gaining IV access in a raging psychotic is almost impossible. Beating the person into submission with a baton is obviously not OK. Spraying him with gas sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. However, everyone in the room is affected by the sprays, sometimes to the point of debilitation.

The Taser humanely and safely stops the mania long enough for us to establish an IV line for antipsychotic and sedative medications. No one else gets hurt. (Prior to Tasers, I've sustained broken ribs, bruises and broken eyeglasses while fighting with these patients.) If someone can think of a better way, we'd all be interested in hearing it.