How rare is the 341?

[Joey_V]

Just how rare and coveted is the 341? Does this model carry a premium on the used market?

[Watchman1957]

Joey, the 341 bought by guys who were buying and holding waiting for the price to soar have come out fo the woodwork wanting to sell it now with prices ranging from USD 26k up to 38K. The iriginal selling price I beleive was 29K and if you bargain hard I say you ould pick it up heap but why?

Go to this link and page all the way down and see the various 341's for sale, seems like at least 4 for sale and that is only on 1 website, it would seem the 341 was just not a very good investment: http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...anerai+Pam341*

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Watchman1957

Joey, the 341 bought by guys who were buying and holding waiting for the price to soar have come out fo the woodwork wanting to sell it now with prices ranging from USD 26k up to 38K. The iriginal selling price I beleive was 29K and if you bargain hard I say you ould pick it up heap but why?

Go to this link and page all the way down and see the various 341's for sale, seems like at least 4 for sale and that is only on 1 website, it would seem the 341 was just not a very good investment: http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...anerai+Pam341*

went to the link you provided and there are only two different sellers who are selling their 341 but have listed it more than once.

i know for sure there will never be one to sell below msrp.. will never happen. there are only 2 341 watches up on ebay for sale. i had contacted one of the sellers making offers just to see how low they would go as they were asking 40 grand usd for them which is 10 grand above the msrp. the best he would do is 35 grand.

i know they wont get 10 above retail at this point in time but i do agree in a year or two once the dust settles, this watch will be very collectable and go for prices being asked today.
it will have the normal collector mark-up that most of the sp edition panerais have
i wear mine and enjoy it. light on the wrist and think its very cool for a weekend watch. people think its a u-boat.

[Watchman1957]

Originally Posted by SubKing

went to the link you provided and there are only two different sellers who are selling their 341 but have listed it more than once.

i know for sure there will never be one to sell below msrp.. will never happen. there are only 2 341 watches up on ebay for sale. i had contacted one of the sellers making offers just to see how low they would go as they were asking 40 grand usd for them which is 10 grand above the msrp. the best he would do is 35 grand.

i know they wont get 10 above retail at this point in time but i do agree in a year or two once the dust settles, this watch will be very collectable and go for prices being asked today.
it will have the normal collector mark-up that most of the sp edition panerais have
i wear mine and enjoy it. light on the wrist and think its very cool for a weekend watch. people think its a u-boat.

As far as I know they only made 500 of these monstrosities and at the link I provided there are several listed from as I said at the time, 4 different people, not just 2, how can this fact evade you since on the website of the link I provided if you look at each ad, it actually shows a country flag of where the seller is located, you are aware that the WORLD is larger than the United States or do you just not recognise some countries?

Here, I hope you can read this and comprehend it.

Here is one located in GERMANY with a posting name of 123myFlower (GERMANY): http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...omir*+Radiomir Egiziano PAM341

The one advertised for 44k Singapore dollars from Horgasm (SINGAPORE) has sold: http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...PAM341*+PAM341

Here is one advertised by Tumahuk from (SAUDIA ARABIA): http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...Pam341*+Pam341 L'Egiziano SE (Reduced)

And another from Plokiu2005 located in ITALY: http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...PAM341*+PAM341 Egiziano Luminor Submersible

Oh and they are coming out of the woodwork as we have another from SWITZERLAND from poster Rattrapante (Schweiz): http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...PAM341*+PAM341 Radomir Egiziano

So are you saying that 2 different sellers are posing as these 5 sellers from 5 different countries to sell these monstrosities on only 1 website. I wonder how many are really out there on the market for sale today? I know of 3 more, one from watches.de (Markus Tschopp, not posted above)and 2 more in the United States not listed above, one from Bruce at Watches24Seven and another from watchuwant.com in the US.

Do a little search on the net ( Google "For Sale Panerai 341" ) and I bet you could find 15 or 3% of the total 341's made, for sale. They are not really that rare at all.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Watchman1957

As far as I know they only made 500 of these monstrosities and at the link I provided there are several listed from as I said at the time, 4 different people, not just 2, how can this fact evade you since on the website of the link I provided if you look at each ad, it actually shows a country flag of where the seller is located, you are aware that the WORLD is larger than the United States or do you just not recognise some countries?

Here, I hope you can read this and comprehend it.

Here is one located in GERMANY with a posting name of 123myFlower (GERMANY): http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...omir*+Radiomir Egiziano PAM341

The one advertised for 44k Singapore dollars from Horgasm (SINGAPORE) has sold: http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...PAM341*+PAM341

Here is one advertised by Tumahuk from (SAUDIA ARABIA): http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...Pam341*+Pam341 L'Egiziano SE (Reduced)

And another from Plokiu2005 located in ITALY: http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...PAM341*+PAM341 Egiziano Luminor Submersible

Oh and they are coming out of the woodwork as we have another from SWITZERLAND from poster Rattrapante (Schweiz): http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...PAM341*+PAM341 Radomir Egiziano

So are you saying that 2 different sellers are posing as these 5 sellers from 5 different countries to sell these monstrosities on only 1 website. I wonder how many are really out there on the market for sale today? I know of 3 more, one from watches.de (Markus Tschopp, not posted above)and 2 more in the United States not listed above, one from Bruce at Watches24Seven and another from watchuwant.com in the US.

Do a little search on the net ( Google "For Sale Panerai 341" ) and I bet you could find 15 or 3% of the total 341's made, for sale. They are not really that rare at all.

First off, post with a little more respect when you are going to respond to any member on this forum unlike the way you responded above... The sellers are using the same pictures for what their selling. It seems fishy. There is such a thing as fraud you know..
I happen to own this watch and 500 watches total is rare.

I think any one would agree those 341 watches for sale on that link seem shady being each ad has used the same photos.

There is not one person on the net who purchased this watch for a discounted price off the msrp... The only way to get a discount on this watch is if someone is in need of money fast and flips it at a lower price but I don't see that happening.

I would never buy a 30k + watch from sellers using the same photos if they are infact different. The watch is not a normal production so it is indeed by definition, rare. If you only want to bash the brand or a watch then save the negative comments. I'm sure others don't appriciate it as well.

[Watchman1957]

Originally Posted by SubKing

First off, post with a little more respect when you are going to respond to any member on this forum unlike the way you responded above... The sellers are using the same pictures for what their selling. It seems fishy. There is such a thing as fraud you know..
I happen to own this watch and 500 watches total is rare.

I think any one would agree those 341 watches for sale on that link seem shady being each ad has used the same photos.

There is not one person on the net who purchased this watch for a discounted price off the msrp... The only way to get a discount on this watch is if someone is in need of money fast and flips it at a lower price but I don't see that happening.

I would never buy a 30k + watch from sellers using the same photos if they are infact different. The watch is not a normal production so it is indeed by definition, rare. If you only want to bash the brand or a watch then save the negative comments. I'm sure others don't appriciate it as well.

You have given me your opinion, now I will give you mine.

So you are implying these sellers as frauds on the PuristSPro website? Have you contacted the site direct and made the accusations direct to the site owners? You do want to do the right thing and stop these kinds of things going on right? If I truly knew there was fraud going on I would not hesistate to report it but you seem to be only implying? I wonder if a charge of liable could be made against you if it is not true? Do you beleive the PuristSPro website knowingly hosts a lot of fraudulent sales or it just limited to this one brand, Panerai and this one model, the 341? Do you beleive that there are other frauds being advertised on that website in accordance to other watches that you own?

If these watches are so rare, then why are so many up for sale across the various internet websites? Rare? Pre A2's, Pre A9's, 202/A's, 203/A's and any of the 201/ or 202/A non-matchings are truly rare becuase they rarely come up for sale. No matter how many of any item are made, be it watches, cars or even gidgets and made in quanitites of 150, 200, 500 or even 1000 of anything, they are only rare if there is a high demand for it in the market, with so many 341's on sale, across the internet, at this time, I fail to see where the 341 is rare.

My condolences as to being one that got in to a feeding frenzy and bought the 60mm monstracity, let's see a wrist shot.

[plokiu2005]

Originally Posted by SubKing

The sellers are using the same pictures for what their selling. It seems fishy. There is such a thing as fraud you know..

Italian 341 post is mine: can u explain your words, please?????

Gianmaria

[Joey_V]

I wonder if there's a market within the US though - those for sale are from out of the country (US) and I wonder if it's flippable in the States.

[Watchman1957]

Originally Posted by Joey_V

I wonder if there's a market within the US though - those for sale are from out of the country (US) and I wonder if it's flippable in the States.

All of my Panerai's I have came from Europe or the States and are shipped in to Singapore and carried over to my home. As for flipping, does not seem like a big market since so many are up for sale all over the net, most buyers in the US that I have dealt with are not scared to buy in Europe or Asia and have shipped in to the US.

[Joey_V]

You're probably right Robert... probably not a good short term investment.

Probably better off if the 341 were kept longer (i.e. 20-40 years).

Ah well... I don't think my wife would be too keen about keeping a good portion of our savings in a safety deposit box for decades.

Sigh... I was looking forward to looking at it and playing with the 341 in my house while I keep it a safequeen.

[MrTito]

I fully appreciate the 'homage' nature of the 341, but I do wonder about the commercial sense of it. IMO if there was a version at 44-47mm it would be the ultimate Panerai and would be snapped up whenever available. I for one would sell my own mother for a watch like that.....and I'm not kidding!

[Joey_V]

Yeah, seems like the consensus is that it'd be more popular if it were NOT 60mm. Ah well.

The search continues. Thanks fellas.

[B. Doggy]

I didn't take you as an "investment" collector, Joey?

[Joey_V]

Originally Posted by B. Doggy

I didn't take you as an "investment" collector, Joey?

No I'm generally not, Brian.... but I don't follow these special editions/limited productions Pams too well and when my AD told me he somehow ended up with one - well, gears in my head began turning.

Questions like:
1. Is this an opportunity for me to own a special piece?
2. What kind of an "investment" will this yield?
3. Should I turn this down without proper research?

So, naturally I come here where the more knowledgeable folk live.

I'm not so keen on it either... now that I have more info. The 341 may become a collectors crown jewel someday, but several things bug me:

1. I can't wear it.
2. The cost ties up way too much of funds.
3. The current market isn't even that great in case I need the funds in the short term.

I think I will pass.

If anyone wants it and I totally decide against it - let me know via PM, and I'll give you the AD.

[plokiu2005]

Originally Posted by Joey_V

No I'm generally not, Brian.... but I don't follow these special editions/limited productions Pams too well and when my AD told me he somehow ended up with one - well, gears in my head began turning.

Questions like:
1. Is this an opportunity for me to own a special piece?
2. What kind of an "investment" will this yield?
3. Should I turn this down without proper research?

So, naturally I come here where the more knowledgeable folk live.

I'm not so keen on it either... now that I have more info. The 341 may become a collectors crown jewel someday, but several things bug me:

1. I can't wear it.
2. The cost ties up way too much of funds.
3. The current market isn't even that great in case I need the funds in the short term.

I think I will pass.

If anyone wants it and I totally decide against it - let me know via PM, and I'll give you the AD.

I've sent you a PM

[Watchman1957]

Hey SubKing, here is your chance to pickup a so called "rare" 341 at a cheap price, you could have 1 for each wrist just so you can even things out.

Tumahuk has posted one last final price reduction, he is down to 30k USD, just a 1k premium over the MSRP and please do not say this guy is a fake, he is backed up by to many respectible Paneristi/Panerai professional sellers and collectors.

http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...anerai+Pam341*

[SubKing]

I'm not accusing anyone directly. I said it seems fishy that the same photos are being used for some of the different listings but then you indirectly called me stupid basically and wondered if I knew how to read... I didn't notice the flags for different sellers I will admit bc I'm using my iPhone to type all of this as I am out of town so everything is smaller and hard to see. But I do not agree with your tone And calling a watch a monstrosity repeadidly is not only childish but not professional. You got your point across that you don't like the watch so shut up and go away. The watch at only 500 is rare, I would hope there are some for sale as it has just been realeased! You stated there is one currently for sale at only 1000 over msrp, but you previously said they can be found below and purchased below msrp. No one has purchased below msrp for the 341. The best you can give me is a listing for a 341 that is still over msrp.. You make no sense. Your original statement that the watch is not rare is false. Many many respected members around trf would call a ss daytona a rare find as well as myself and rolex makes hundreds of thousands of them annually. So at 500 made total of the 341 pams and no more is definitely rare. And I still stand that no one on the planet will get this 341 below msrp from a retailer. Maybe one person out of 500 would luck out and find a seller who needed to flip his used 341 for fast cash and take a 1000'dollar hit. Anything more watchman to argue facts is just going to make you look like a hater of the brand. So I'm glad you hate it but enough with calling it a monstrosity. we got the picture..

[Watchman1957]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I'm not accusing anyone directly. I said it seems fishy that the same photos are being used for some of the different listings but then you indirectly called me stupid basically and wondered if I knew how to read... I didn't notice the flags for different sellers I will admit bc I'm using my iPhone to type all of this as I am out of town so everything is smaller and hard to see. But I do not agree with your tone And calling a watch a monstrosity repeadidly is not only childish but not professional. You got your point across that you don't like the watch so shut up and go away. The watch at only 500 is rare, I would hope there are some for sale as it has just been realeased! You stated there is one currently for sale at only 1000 over msrp, but you previously said they can be found below and purchased below msrp. No one has purchased below msrp for the 341. The best you can give me is a listing for a 341 that is still over msrp.. You make no sense. Your original statement that the watch is not rare is false. Many many respected members around trf would call a ss daytona a rare find as well as myself and rolex makes hundreds of thousands of them annually. So at 500 made total of the 341 pams and no more is definitely rare. And I still stand that no one on the planet will get this 341 below msrp from a retailer. Maybe one person out of 500 would luck out and find a seller who needed to flip his used 341 for fast cash and take a 1000'dollar hit. Anything more watchman to argue facts is just going to make you look like a hater of the brand. So I'm glad you hate it but enough with calling it a monstrosity. we got the picture..

So you make fraud accusations against 2 different posters trying to sell the watch and you get called out on it and your run and now all you can do is attack me because I call the watch a monstracity? WTF? Well hopefully we will see a wrist shot from you where the 60mm does not look like that on your wrist.

Here is a 341 in Germany of the 5 sellers on PuristsPro that is selling for under MSRP (USD 26,300) http://market.watchprosite.com/?show...omir*+Radiomir Egiziano PAM341 but according to you he is a fraud too? Please clarify these libelous claims.

By the way you have failed to answer any of my questions regarding if you reported your suspicions of fraud to PuristsPro, if not, why?

[Watchman1957]

SubKing, Something rare in the market is something bought and held by people, the 341 is not rare as there are so many 341's around for sale.

If you remember, the 341's for sale on PuristSpro are located outside of the US. Here are some in the USA and I dare you to call these fella's frauds as they are professional dealers and will have lawyers to back them up in the USA, where you are located:

Gary Jemal in New York City is selling his 341 for 32,500 USD: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...%28jemwatch%29

Guilio also located in New York City is selling his 341 for 30,500 USD: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...28Giuliosax%29

Boris, from the USA, also listed a 341 for sale for USD 32,000: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...%28sale2day%29

Bruce over at Watch24Seven has a 341 for sale at 38,000 USD: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...%28sale2day%29

Cavallino in Colorado has a 341 for sale at USD 36,500: http://www.luxury4play.com/watches/5...-341-bnib.html

[Tommysol]

Originally Posted by Watchman1957

SubKing, Something rare in the market is something bought and held by people, the 341 is not rare as there are so many 341's around for sale.

If you remember, the 341's for sale on PuristSpro are located outside of the US. Here are some in the USA and I dare you to call these fella's frauds as they are professional dealers and will have lawyers to back them up in the USA, where you are located:

Gary Jemal in New York City is selling his 341 for 32,500 USD: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...%28jemwatch%29

Guilio also located in New York City is selling his 341 for 30,500 USD: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...28Giuliosax%29

Boris, from the USA, also listed a 341 for sale for USD 32,000: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...%28sale2day%29

Bruce over at Watch24Seven has a 341 for sale at 38,000 USD: http://www.network54.com/Forum/61171...%28sale2day%29

Cavallino in Colorado has a 341 for sale at USD 36,500: http://www.luxury4play.com/watches/5...-341-bnib.html

I thought you were the type of collector that did not care about watches as "investments"? It is funny how almost every post...you make references to "values" "rarity" "collectibility" "sales forum prices". I mean you can quote almost every PAM 341 that has been sold or has been for sale in the world. Why care if it is a watch you hate so much? You would like nothing more for the value of the PAM 341 to from to $5000. That my friend is a "hater" and you define that title. I honestly hope your pre-V pieces hold value and increase...it is good for all Panerai collectors. This is a big brotherhood of collectors on this forum and I personally do not wish anyone bad fortune and if a watch that I do not want to own personally...I try not to ruin the experience of any collector finding a watch that he/she admires. Maybe its just me...but that seems kind of contradictory that you do not care or do buy watches as investments. Your beef on the PAM 341 is laughable and guys like SubKing and me are making you dance like a trained bear on the matter with your endless research on "values' and whether it is "good investment" or not.

I actually love your posts because they are so hypocritical and antagonizing to the point of being hysterical and so full of bad logic that I would not know when to begin an intelligent debate with you. Just to give you one example of your hypocrisy...the PAM 341 IS a rare watch (regardless of your posts about how many of them are for sale) in the world of watches....only 500 will ever be made...that is 177 more than a 5218-201. Even if the watch temporarily falls to a value of $26000...that is only a 12% decline in value....assuming you paid MSRP. In the watch world...that is a minor miracle in today's economy. As you like to cite "investments" (something you do not care about when it comes to watches)...then it may not be the best "investment". But as you said..you do not buy watches as investments. So what is your point then of quoting all these sales prices and wishing/hoping the watch will fall in value? Remember it does not matter to you...right?

For a guy that does not look as watches for investments...you certainly would not convince many people on this forum....after your make lengthy posts about what watches are selling for or what pieces are not "worth" what you think they are. Did it ever occur to you that people buy watches they like...regardless of value? Isn't the fun of owning a watch is wearing and admiring it? At the end of your life...do you think any of your dime store opinion will matter to the world? Let others enjoy the watches they buy.

I will close with a quote from a post that you made to me a few months ago. You let me know if you are not being contradictory and illogical as to why you buy watches.



"Tommy, I bought the watch because of what it represents, becuase of the history and originality, not as an investment, I bought it because I wanted it and have never bought a watch (of all things) as an investment.

Why would you ever think I bought this watch as an investment?"


Oh by the way...we know you think the PAM 341 is a monstrosity...so no reason to be redundant...we all get it. We also do not need your constant updates on the PAM 341 value market...remember you do not like or own a PAM 341 and you also do not care about values or invesments when it comes to watches.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation...there is a life after a PAM 341 you know!

Cheers mate...happy collecting!

[Watchman1957]

Originally Posted by Tommysol

I thought you were the type of collector that did not care about watches as "investments"? It is funny how almost every post...you make references to "values" "rarity" "collectibility" "sales forum prices". I mean you can quote almost every PAM 341 that has been sold or has been for sale in the world. Why care if it is a watch you hate so much? You would like nothing more for the value of the PAM 341 to from to $5000. That my friend is a "hater" and you define that title. I honestly hope your pre-V pieces hold value and increase...it is good for all Panerai collectors. This is a big brotherhood of collectors on this forum and I personally do not wish anyone bad fortune and if a watch that I do not want to own personally...I try not to ruin the experience of any collector finding a watch that he/she admires. Maybe its just me...but that seems kind of contradictory that you do not care or do buy watches as investments. Your beef on the PAM 341 is laughable and guys like SubKing and me are making you dance like a trained bear on the matter with your endless research on "values' and whether it is "good investment" or not.

I actually love your posts because they are so hypocritical and antagonizing to the point of being hysterical and so full of bad logic that I would not know when to begin an intelligent debate with you. Just to give you one example of your hypocrisy...the PAM 341 IS a rare watch (regardless of your posts about how many of them are for sale) in the world of watches....only 500 will ever be made...that is 177 more than a 5218-201. Even if the watch temporarily falls to a value of $26000...that is only a 12% decline in value....assuming you paid MSRP. In the watch world...that is a minor miracle in today's economy. As you like to cite "investments" (something you do not care about when it comes to watches)...then it may not be the best "investment". But as you said..you do not buy watches as investments. So what is your point then of quoting all these sales prices and wishing/hoping the watch will fall in value? Remember it does not matter to you...right?

For a guy that does not look as watches for investments...you certainly would not convince many people on this forum....after your make lengthy posts about what watches are selling for or what pieces are not "worth" what you think they are. Did it ever occur to you that people buy watches they like...regardless of value? Isn't the fun of owning a watch is wearing and admiring it? At the end of your life...do you think any of your dime store opinion will matter to the world? Let others enjoy the watches they buy.

I will close with a quote from a post that you made to me a few months ago. You let me know if you are not being contradictory and illogical as to why you buy watches.



"Tommy, I bought the watch because of what it represents, becuase of the history and originality, not as an investment, I bought it because I wanted it and have never bought a watch (of all things) as an investment.

Why would you ever think I bought this watch as an investment?"


Oh by the way...we know you think the PAM 341 is a monstrosity...so no reason to be redundant...we all get it. We also do not need your constant updates on the PAM 341 value market...remember you do not like or own a PAM 341 and you also do not care about values or invesments when it comes to watches.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation...there is a life after a PAM 341 you know!

Cheers mate...happy collecting!

Sorry Tommy, did not dwell long, so why did you buy 341 and how often do you wear it? Where do you wear it? Do you wear it around people?

[SubKing]

Ps watchman, stop with the pm's, i have nothing more to say

[Watchman1957]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Ps watchman, stop with the pm's, i have nothing more to say

This is total crap, PLEASE ALL MODERATORS, CHECK AND CONFIRM IF I HAVE SENT THIS SUBKING ANY PM'S I HAVE NOT PM'ED ANYONE IN HERE IN WEEKS.

As most know here, I have no problem in making my points in public, SubKing is the one that seems to want to run away from this thread and needs an excuse to do so, hence the little message about PM's. I guess it is his way of saving face, except, like another, he does not have much left to save.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by Watchman1957

This is total crap, PLEASE ALL MODERATORS, CHECK AND CONFIRM IF I HAVE SENT THIS SUBKING ANY PM'S I HAVE NOT PM'ED ANYONE IN HERE IN WEEKS.

As most know here, I have no problem in making my points in public, SubKing is the one that seems to want to run away from this thread and needs an excuse to do so, hence the little message about PM's. I guess it is his way of saving face, except, like another, he does not have much left to save.

Just for the record everyone, we don't have any way of checking anyone's private messages

[Lol-x]

Watchman1957 you need to check your attitude.

You started all this with your 'monstrosity' allegation.

If you don't like the watch that is fine, but you have been borderline abusive.

Now this isn't a debate, either check your attitude or you will be checking out......permanently.

Thanks

[SubKing]

Thanks for the back up everyone. Happy holidays

[SubKing]

Also one note to Ad is that i did not mean to call any sellers frauds and I did not name any one directly or provide links like watchman. I did not notice the flags under the sellers names as my iPhone is hard to multitask from. I just meant to say buying any high dollar watch you want to be careful.. But i still stand that I would do alot research if anyone were to buy this watch at a huge discount because it just would not seem normal considering the market this watch is currently selling at which is not below msrp. But no disrespect intended to any of the sellers, my statement above if re read is not directed to anyone specific, just generalized. Did not wan this to get out of hand like it did. My initial post was with the best intentions

[Lol-x]

Also if you anyone does get unappreciated messages they can put the sender of such messages onto their 'ignore list' that way that other is no longer able to send messages to you.

[Tony-GB]

As far as I know, most people who buy this piece get it to wear- not to be a safe queen.

[marcinthemiddle]

Looks like watchman1957 MIGHT be back under the handle 'PAMKing'...