Lots of 6538 military dials appearing all of a sudden?

[arttay10]

I don't know if any other of the uk members have noticed - but there seems to be a lot of NOS 6538 and even 3/6/9 submariner dials being offered for sale on EBay UK.
I know that some of these dials have been commented in topic before - but now other sellers are offering these dials..

My question is - why all of a sudden?

[Michael M.]

From what I've heard, they're regular service dial with a added T

[Mike Wood]

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company (to remove the radium), and he has been dripping these out on eBay and into the watch trade.

The dials are interesting, but very very limited in their usefulness, as they are made to fit the British military issued Rolex Submariner ref. A6538, of which there may be around 20 left in existance, and errrr.... they've all got dials on already!

MW

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company (to remove the radium), and he has been dripping these out on eBay and into the watch trade.

The dials are interesting, but very very limited in their usefulness, as they are made to fit the British military issued Rolex Submariner ref. A6538, of which there may be around 20 left in existance, and errrr.... they've all got dials on already!

MW

Thanks for the info Mike.

[Yazo]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company (to remove the radium), and he has been dripping these out on eBay and into the watch trade.

The dials are interesting, but very very limited in their usefulness, as they are made to fit the British military issued Rolex Submariner ref. A6538, of which there may be around 20 left in existance, and errrr.... they've all got dials on already!

MW

Wow!

[arttay10]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company (to remove the radium), and he has been dripping these out on eBay and into the watch trade.

The dials are interesting, but very very limited in their usefulness, as they are made to fit the British military issued Rolex Submariner ref. A6538, of which there may be around 20 left in existance, and errrr.... they've all got dials on already!

MW

Wow.. thanks Mike - and you learn something new every day....

Your definatley the right guy to know about these things - in fact I wondered why these had made it to open sale. I would of thought that if these were worth having - then yourself or other more experienced collectors, would have purchased them privatley already....

[arttay10]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company

MW

Anyone who knows me - it's no relation of mine or connection

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company (to remove the radium), and he has been dripping these out on eBay and into the watch trade.

The dials are interesting, but very very limited in their usefulness, as they are made to fit the British military issued Rolex Submariner ref. A6538, of which there may be around 20 left in existance, and errrr.... they've all got dials on already!

MW

Great to know Mike, you sure keeping watch:).

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A chap called Dennis Yates came across a box of unused Rolex 6538 tritium dials repainted by the Burford company (to remove the radium), and he has been dripping these out on eBay and into the watch trade.

The dials are interesting, but very very limited in their usefulness, as they are made to fit the British military issued Rolex Submariner ref. A6538, of which there may be around 20 left in existance, and errrr.... they've all got dials on already!

MW

Thanks for correcting me Mike, great info

[harry in montreal]

anyone has a link to one of these. i am curious

[Mike Wood]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

anyone has a link to one of these. i am curious

Here is one of Dennis' dials live on fl'eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolex-6538...item19c834e25e

MW

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

Here is one of Dennis' dials live on fl'eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolex-6538...item19c834e25e

MW

Err Buddy MW...great to see you here too...

Anyway...

Here's another "MOD Burford Dial" from the same eBay Seller...
Do read his descriptions in the listing which ended on 21 August 2011...

http://www.google.com.my/url?sa=t&so...WlCzCg&cad=rja

[jedly1]

and here is what was posted on VRF with regards to the seller ....with whom i have personally found to be less than honest after some years ago he sold me a watch and looked me in the eye and told me it was bought for his 21st birthday in 1972......shame that when i later enquired of rolex it was found to have been manufactured in 1973.....he also has a history of registering and making up new identities ...have a look at the BBC link......fascinating read...


......http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759.../dennis+yates-

[cruvon]

Whats the bets on him calling himself Madoff next?;)

[Chris B]

Jeepers!

Thank-you guys for being on high-alert & spotting these scams

[arttay10]

So, I wonder if we'll be seeing a lot of 6538's appearing soon with Burford dials for sale at inflated prices....
There again.... If you was to send a 6538 into Rolex for a service (hypothetically) and asked them to not touch the dial and hands etc... Would they pass the dials of as authentic?
I know you would have the case back marking issue to look at - but if a genuine standard 6358 case was fitted..?

I'm just wondering what people are going to do with these dials - if as Mike pointed out there are only around 20 of these watches in existence - with their own dials...

[jedly1]

weeellllll...of the box of 50 ..only a small few appeared to be burford dials...the rest appear to be a batch of 6538 service dials to which it is felt someone..possibly??? the MOD had added a circle T in quite a rough fashion.

The A6538 and 6538's were originally supplied with standard dials ( most notably red depth rating) but are felt to have been upgraded to burford dials in the early 60's by the MOD watchmakers


After some discussion amongst those of us that follow the MOD stuff...the supposition is that POSSIBLY for whatever reasons this bunch of service dials were an alternate replacement dial to those actually chosen (the burford)..and had been ordered from Rolex and the MOD added the circle T nut never used them ...it has striking similarities to some of the MOD t circle Omega dials....

the other possibility is that someone found a box of these service dials and more recently added circle t's thinking they were going to make a killing.....

The reality is though that these service dials have never been seen on a well provenanced 6538/A6538 so will not be accepted by the community....


so there isn't 50 suddenly around, there are a handful of burfords.....to use them for anything other than restoration of a legitimate 6538 mil is tricky though, the value of a 6538 with one fitted is not much different to a 6538 anyway and would need to be a specific serial range to even be considered mil. An A6538 is very tricky to fake ...as it has engravings to case, caseback etc ...a unique bezel retaining ring and most importantly a unique bezel (think £20k on it own)...if you could recreate that lot...you could probably have made the dial anyhow !!!

so most likely ...restoration of a legit mil.... a looky likey, the odd bad fake...or more likely a whole bunch of people thinking they've made a uniqe steal of a purchase that they can flip at a profit ....many of whom are going to be very disappointed...

[arttay10]

Well summed up Jed.. and again I've learnt something new there!!

Lack of knowledge in this area, is what prompted my questioning of them.

[Mike Wood]

This is my own British military issued big-crown Submariner wearing the Burford Explorer-style 3-6-9 dial.

The watch is a 1957 ref. A/6538, with a number of characteristics which make it unique to the British military, and very significantly, the only A/6538 which I have ever seen still retaining its original "German silver" bezel.



A very small number of Submariners were ordered by the Bristish Ministry of Defence in the late 1950's, possibly for experimental purposes. It is likely the watches were originally fitted with normal 200m 660ft Submariner dials with radium luminous markers and radium hands, similar to the watch below



As the real danger of radium became apparent, the watches were recalled to the Ministry of Defence in the early 1960's, where the watchmakers at the observatory at Herstmonceaux Castle in southern England fitted dials with tritium luminous markers, tritium hands, and bezel inserts with tritium markers dots. The dials were printed for the Ministry of Defence with a very clear and legible 3-6-9 lay-out, with a very tall Rolex coronet, and the T-circle signifying tritium luminous compound. The dials are referred to as the "Burford dials". I have not come across a legitimate milSub 6538 watch with the other dial type with the "fluffy-T"... no doubt one or two will start popping up now the dials are in circulation!

The bezel on the watch is unique to the A/6538, being much deeper than that fitted to the civilian Submariner watch (possibly for better grip when wearing thick diving gloves?), and is made from a metal alloy referred to as German silver. The extra height of the bezel necessitates a "double height" glass retaining ring, but the bezel does not clip very securely and invariably these watches lose their original bezels (replacements are unobtainable ). I'm pleased to say my watch also retains its original period super-dome crystal, which buffed up nicely with a little Poli-watch! The winder is the big 8mm Brevet crown, and althought the bezel "chamfers" are still quite sharp, the watch has a few battle scars!



The watch also retains its original fixed strap retaining bars. These look like regular spring bars, but are again made from a metal alloy similar to the German silver bezel, and the ends of the pins are brazed into place. The Rolex reference number A/6538 is clearly engraved at the 12 o'clock case-end



but a case number was never engraved at the 6 o'clock case-end, and the case side is left brushed



The case back is engraved with British military issue numbers. These appear to be electro-eroded into the case back. The 0552 code signifies Royal Navy issue, with a five digit number below. Other watches have appeared with H.S. caseback engravings, signifying use by the Hydrographic Service (map making and exploration).



Inside, the watch is powered by the Rolex calibre 1030 movement





The inside of the caseback has a few more unique characteristics: the model reference number 6540 is struck-out three times, and replaced by a larger A/6538; and as with other A/6538 milSubs, the caseback is punched with the date code III.57



The dials currently being offered for sale will fit straight into regular 6538 Submariners, but recreating an A/6538 will be virtually impossible. I'd be happy to own one or two of these loose dials, but to buy one for big money would be like buying a white elephant...

MW

[jedly1]

and importantly just to re iterate Mikes point that i think should be emphasised, ...the A6538 should have some serious recognition as the watch that shaped the bezel appearance we know and love today...

before this the standard submariner bezel design was the smaller knurled big crown style which at best is tricky to move...imagine how hard under water in pitch dark with dive glove on !!!

obviously someone in MOD recognised this and a new design was created and tested on the A6538 before passing to the production model 5512 in 1959....made in bespoke german nickled silver and supplied to better meet the divers needs......guess it worked :)


oh an don't forget mike ...when the 911 needs a new engine ill happily take that tatty old milsub off you :)

[Mike Wood]

Originally Posted by jedly1

oh an don't forget mike ...when the 911 needs a new engine ill happily take that tatty old milsub off you :)

Can I have a yacht too, please?

[jedly1]

[QUOTE=Mike Wood;2690944]Can I have a yacht too, please?

[/QUOTE

yes ..you can ....:)

[Paulie 50]

Hi mike, Paul senior here, on a different post a few weeks ago i was shot down in flames re. these particular dials, for suggesting that they were fakes, as you know Mike i am by profession an Engineer, and i suggested that the circled T was misaligned with the centre finger hole, something i assume Rolex would never allow to happen. Btw yours is perfectly aligned.
Regards, Paul.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

Hi mike, Paul senior here, on a different post a few weeks ago i was shot down in flames re. these particular dials, for suggesting that they were fakes, as you know Mike i am by profession an Engineer, and i suggested that the circled T was misaligned with the centre finger hole, something i assume Rolex would never allow to happen. Btw yours is perfectly aligned.
Regards, Paul.

this is the one you commented on Paulie, and it is in fact a correct one (from the box)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROLEX-3-6-9-BU...item20bb113aee


I agree whole heartedly about Rolex and its fussiness but please remember these dials were not made by, and did not have any connection with Rolex...they were ordered by the MOD and manufactured by burford ..(.a company that made aircraft instrument dials) a local bespoke job for 50 or so dials ...printed OVER the existing dials...so they are a little rough and a little 'kitchen table' :)...though the dial plate does have some consistencies that make it possible to identify a real one ....

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by jedly1

this is the one you commented on Paulie, and it is in fact a correct one (from the box)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROLEX-3-6-9-BU...item20bb113aee


I agree whole heartedly about Rolex and its fussiness but please remember these dials were not made by, and did not have any connection with Rolex...they were ordered by the MOD and manufactured by burford ..(.a company that made aircraft instrument dials) a local bespoke job for 50 or so dials ...printed OVER the existing dials...so they are a little rough and a little 'kitchen table' :)...though the dial plate does have some consistencies that make it possible to identify a real one ....

Jed, i will always bow to superior knowledge and expertise. Regards Paul. Btw i sent you a PM whilst you were on holiday, i know that you had hundreds to go through, but can you help.

[HL65]

Amazing specimen Mike! Thanks for sharing with us! Always great to learn here from top collectors like yourself!

[HL65]

Jed my friend-- thanks as well for sharing your insight with us!

[arttay10]

Thanks for all the replys guys - it's made an interesting read and educational thread....


Mike - can I please ask what reference the second sub pictured (without the circled T) is?

[Mike Wood]

Originally Posted by arttay10

Mike - can I please ask what reference the second sub pictured (without the circled T) is?

It's a regular Rolex "big crown James Bond" Submariner ref. 6538... in fact, I think I'll put it on my wrist right now!

[arttay10]

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

It's a regular Rolex "big crown James Bond" Submariner ref. 6538... in fact, I think I'll put it on my wrist right now!

In fact Mike - Save you the bother.. we'll set up a payment plan and send it to me... The 6538 or similar no guard Submariner is next on the list....

I'm sure the weekly payments might just cover the fuel in that yellow Porsche of yours....