Need Some Advice re Toyota Leather Upholstery Scam

[david_ord]

I really need some advice, as this has been ongoing for a month. I bought a new 2012 Toyota Sienna for my wife a month ago. The dealer convinced me to buy a $2,000 leather upgrade. I asked if the backs and sides of the seats would be leather. Throughout the 2 hours it took for me to take possession of the car, the lady confirmed, re-confirmed, re-re-confirmed, and re-re-re-confirmed that it would be a 100% percent leather job-- backs, undersides, anywhere/everywhere. By no means would they use vinyl ANYWHERE in the car. They even gave me a sample of a nice, soft, thick piece of leather to take home to my wife.

I dropped my car off about 2 weeks later for the install. The morning after getting it back, I noticed that the first row driver’s and passenger seats had leather uppers (where the seat makes contact with your legs and back), and that the sides, armrests, headrests, and backs were vinyl a.k.a. “pleather.” The entire 2nd and 3rd row seats were vinyl. I showed it to a couple of friends and family. No one could tell the difference. I could tell because I made leather products as a boy scout years ago. I called, spoke with the GM, and stated that I was considering filing a complaint with the Atty General’s Office, as it appears that they are engaging in a practice that affects a fairly large segment of consumers (the dealership, Sun Toyota, is huge, selling about 600 cars per month). The GM apologized and said he would order a new set that would comprise of 100% leather. They eventually scheduled me to come in about 2 weeks later for the re-do.

That was yesterday. I showed up and requested to inspect the leather prior to install. It turned out they only intended to replace the 2nd and 3rd rows with the same junk—leather uppers, vinyl sides and backs. They weren’t even going to touch the front row, and intended to leave all the armrests and headrests vinyl. I said no. They summoned a manager. Long story short, I eventually compromised and said I would accept all the seats having vinyl sides and backs, as long as they order 4 arm rests and all 8 head rests in real leather for me. They scheduled me to come back next week at which time they would do everything at once.

I am now remorseful about compromising with them. For one, the real leather they install is real thin and has a foam backing-- not the same as the sample they gave me. Additionally, the backs of these seats, which will be all vinyl, are HUGE! Under this compromise, I would still end up with 60% of the car being cheap vinyl. Should I call back and cancel and essentially say either all or nothing? Or should I bite the bullet and call it the day, considering that $2000 is not that bad a price for all leather uppers on 8 seats? Please help!

[FNFZ4]

The best thing to do is not to hesitate but to contact a lemon law attorney. Why lemon law? because most lemon law attorneys are also expert dealer fraud attorneys. The law varies state by state. I must say, if you were in California you have a hell of a case if you have paper work stating all surfaces would be 100% leather. moral of the story is DO NOT TRUST THE STEALERSHIPS!!! whenever I buy a car and they claim something, I always say put it in writing. When I bought my Audi it was Advertised as a CPO but when I got there they said it wasnt CPO. So I walked out the door. I have not even reached my car and they came after me and said they can CPO it for the same price. and I said " put it on paper or no deal" its a buyers market my friend. I wish I can help you but I dont have any knowledge of Florida Consumer Laws.

[azguy]

I thought using leather and vinyl was pretty typical on mid-priced cars, but if they told you all leather, they are dead wrong and depending on how it looks $2,000 seems pretty steep

[Jocke]

Isn't a Toyota build by plastic and vinyl? My guess is if you want a full leather cover you have to buy it from
a independent leather tailor. $2000 for a 8 seater in full leather sounds like a bargain to me. That have made me
suspicious from the start.

So now we know a Toyota dealer is not better than a Rolex dealer when it comes to accurate information.

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Isn't a Toyota build by plastic and vinyl? My guess is if you want a full leather cover you have to buy it from
a independent leather tailor. $2000 for a 8 seater in full leather sounds like a bargain to me. That have made me
suspicious from the start.

So now we know a Toyota dealer is not better than a Rolex dealer when it comes to accurate information.

Yes Jocke, I think you're right. I think that's why they order from Katzkin and then simply install for a profit.

[MortgageGuy]

Honestly for the $2k I think the vinyl/leather combo is more than acceptable... I also agree on a Toyota or mid line car this is a common practice... This of course is my opinion but I would not be too worried about it, life is short

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by MortgageGuy

Honestly for the $2k I think the vinyl/leather combo is more than acceptable... I also agree on a Toyota or mid line car this is a common practice... This of course is my opinion but I would not be too worried about it, life is short

Adam, thanks for the comment about life being too short. When I read that, I thought about my initial reaction when I first found out-- My heart started beating fast, my breathing changed. I was going through a fight or flight attack. I had call time out and calm myself before I placed the call. In life, you have to pick your battles. Thus, if you guys think that $2,000 is ok for the leather/pleather combo, then I'll just roll with it.

[JasoninDenver]

I paid about $2,000 for the premium leather in my much smaller outback.

[MortgageGuy]

Originally Posted by david_ord

Adam, thanks for the comment about life being too short. When I read that, I thought about my initial reaction when I first found out-- My heart started beating fast, my breathing changed. I was going through a fight or flight attack. I had call time out and calm myself before I placed the call. In life, you have to pick your battles. Thus, if you guys think that $2,000 is ok for the leather/pleather combo, then I'll just roll with it.

I really do I am sorry to hear that this dealer misrepresented themselves and would also be upset but as long as there is some type of compromise I do think you win in the end... Piece of mind is priceless my friend

[JasoninDenver]

Unless 100% leather was specifically stated in the contract you will have a tough claim as most car sales contracts have a clause saying that any verbal representations made were not part of the contract. They would have to deal with a fraud investigation but really you are the one customer in 1000 savvy enough to know the difference between leather and pleather. a friend that bought a BMW couldn't believe that his seats were the fake stuff.

Sounds like you agreed to a compromise with the armrests and headrests already so it may be more difficult to negotiate now.

BTW: I am pretty sure Toyota is using katzin leather seats so make sure that they installed the grade of leather that you purchased as well. I have the top end Katzin in my Outback and it is as good of leather as I have ever seen in a car. Howeevr, the sides and backs are still vinyl.

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

Unless 100% leather was specifically stated in the contract you will have a tough claim as most car sales contracts have a clause saying that any verbal representations made were not part of the contract. They would have to deal with a fraud investigation but really you are the one customer in 1000 savvy enough to know the difference between leather and pleather. a friend that bought a BMW couldn't believe that his seats were the fake stuff.

Sounds like you agreed to a compromise with the armrests and headrests already so it may be more difficult to negotiate now.

BTW: I am pretty sure Toyota is using katzin leather seats so make sure that they installed the grade of leather that you purchased as well. I have the top end Katzin in my Outback and it is as good of leather as I have ever seen in a car. Howeevr, the sides and backs are still vinyl.

You're right, they order the kit from Katzkin and simply install it: http://www.katzkin.com/

Mine's probably a lower/lowest quality kit from katzkin. How much did the katzkin in your outback cost you?

I agree with all of you guys that a mid-price car like this never has real leather on the backs and sides. I only bought it because I thought 100% leather constituted a bargain. Otherwise, I would have been perfectly happy with the very nice velvet cloth seats. Besides, I could have used the $2,000 for some other vice ;). Its not written in the contract that it is 100% leather. Their clause attempting to invalidate oral agreements has limited enforceability in a court of law.

In any event, I have a law degree (passed florida bar, but never practiced), and will tell you that litigation is not the way to go.
Legality/litigation is useful as a threat, but unless there is well over $100K at stake, it is not practicable to use the courts as a tool for dispute resolution.

[Cru Jones]

Forgive my ignorance, but, was this a dealer option or a factory option?

[Jocke]

I've paid over $2000 for this.

Here is how it looks from the start.





And here is "my design".







I'm very satisfied with the result.

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by Jocke

I've paid over $2000 for this.

Here is how it looks from the start.



I'm very satisfied with the result.

Wow, Jocke, that is a very nice and professional restoration of a classic MB SL 500! Nice work! Are you in the car business?

[TswaneNguni]

Never trust "people that sell cars" ...new or used.Always be aware !!

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by david_ord

Wow, Jocke, that is a very nice and professional restoration of a classic MB SL 500! Nice work! Are you in the car business?

Thanks.

Yes I work with cars and this 500SL is my personal.

[F&Iguy]

that sucks! you can get a good leather kit for your van for the 2k. Find a good upholstery shop where you live and tell the dealer you want it done there. remember its your money and you should be happy with your purchase. Tell them you are going to call toyota corp. office along with the AG

[Dr. Robert]

Can't you get a Sienna w/ leather from the factory?

[F&Iguy]

Originally Posted by Dr. Robert

Can't you get a Sienna w/ leather from the factory?

yes you can

[Cru Jones]

Nice work, Jocke......now let's see what you can do with three rows of minivan seating.

[gwalker]

That sucks to be scammed. You don't want to know what I had to pay for this leather.....

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by gwalker

That sucks to be scammed. You don't want to know what I had to pay for this leather.....

Hi Gunther. Nice car!! That's your SL550 right? How much did you pay for the leather?

I have a nice black leather interior in my 2011 MB E350 sports package. If I'm not mistaken, it came with one of the packages, so I'm not sure how much it would have cost separately. In any case, I know for a fact all the leather in the MB is real. Before the E-class, I had an S-class for 5 years. I put 90K miles on it, yet the leather felt like it was brand new.

[gwalker]

Originally Posted by david_ord

Hi Gunther. Nice car!! That's your SL550 right? How much did you pay for the leather?

I have a nice black leather interior in my 2011 MB E350 sports package. If I'm not mistaken, it came with one of the packages, so I'm not sure how much it would have cost separately. In any case, I know for a fact all the leather in the MB is real. Before the E-class, I had an S-class for 5 years. I put 90K miles on it, yet the leather felt like it was brand new.

Yea that's our SL550. The leather is great. I was worried because its ventilated and I thought durability would suffer. After a 18 months or so still looks and smells new. The SL only has 3-4 options u can get. If I remember we got the Premuim1 package just for the Airscarf headrests. Very nice for chilly days. When we purchased we got a BIG discount and got out of there for about $15-16k off sticker when everything was said and done. I had no idea what discounts were on MBs but it was our best deal we could find by far. I used to think MB was about the name but this car is amazing. If able I will continue to buy MBs for the rest of my life.

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by gwalker

Yea that's our SL550. The leather is great. I was worried because its ventilated and I thought durability would suffer. After a 18 months or so still looks and smells new. The SL only has 3-4 options u can get. If I remember we got the Premuim1 package just for the Airscarf headrests. Very nice for chilly days. When we purchased we got a BIG discount and got out of there for about $15-16k off sticker when everything was said and done. I had no idea what discounts were on MBs but it was our best deal we could find by far. I used to think MB was about the name but this car is amazing. If able I will continue to buy MBs for the rest of my life.

Wow, that's huge discount. I imagine that airscarf is pretty cool, though I've never experienced it firsthand. I got a huge discount too. I pressured the poor salesman down to the wire at 8:30PM on August 31st. August is a high pressure month for them because they have to make their yearly quota. The sticker price on the 2011 MB E350 was $56,750.00, yet, I was able to walk out at $50,000, literally. With tax/title/tag factored in, I think I got a 10K discount.

[daveathall]

You say that other people cannot tell the difference. I ask this question because I don't know the answer, how can you tell the difference between the leather and pleather/vinyl please?

[david_ord]

Originally Posted by daveathall

You say that other people cannot tell the difference. I ask this question because I don't know the answer, how can you tell the difference between the leather and pleather/vinyl please?

Very good question. "Most" of the time, I can smell and feel the difference. I can also see the difference sometimes, particularly after some aging. Leather ages differently than vinyl. The pliability of leather and pleather is also different. I can tell by tugging on it.

However, sometimes real leather and vinyl are designed to be used on the same piece of furniture, so the manufacturer applies the same paint/dye on both the leather and the vinyl. This makes the leather and vinyl smell and feel the same. This is the case with the Toyota/Katskin leather/vinyl combo. The way to tell then is the "pinch" test. Real leather is denser than vinyl-- when you pinch the leather, you should feel a thick, solid ridge. Conversely, when you pinch the vinyl, you get a smaller, softer ridge because there is no body, no thickness to the vinyl-- b/c the vinyl is simply a foam.

Here's a picture of the leather in my couch. Notice how thick ridge is? It also feels solid. The couch is all leather, so I can't do a comparative demo. Its too dark for me to go outside to take a picture of the Toyota. If I were to pinch the vinyl, you would see a much smaller, flimsier ridge.

Lastly, the most accurate test, if and when possible, is to flip the material over and look. Real leather is suede on the other side. Fake leather is usually a thick, spongy material, braced by a layer of fabric, and then covered by a softer, more porous sponge layer.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by david_ord

Very good question. "Most" of the time, I can smell and feel the difference. I can also see the difference sometimes, particularly after some aging. Leather ages differently than vinyl. The pliability of leather and pleather is also different. I can tell by tugging on it.

However, sometimes real leather and vinyl are designed to be used on the same piece of furniture, so the manufacturer applies the same paint/dye on both the leather and the vinyl. This makes the leather and vinyl smell and feel the same. This is the case with the Toyota/Katskin leather/vinyl combo. The way to tell then is the "pinch" test. Real leather is denser than vinyl-- when you pinch the leather, you should feel a thick, solid ridge. Conversely, when you pinch the vinyl, you get a smaller, softer ridge because there is no body, no thickness to the vinyl-- b/c the vinyl is simply a foam.

Here's a picture of the leather in my couch. Notice how thick ridge is? It also feels solid. The couch is all leather, so I can't do a comparative demo. Its too dark for me to go outside to take a picture of the Toyota. If I were to pinch the vinyl, you would see a much smaller, flimsier ridge.

Lastly, the most accurate test, if and when possible, is to flip the material over and look. Real leather is suede on the other side. Fake leather is usually a thick, spongy material, braced by a layer of fabric, and then covered by a softer, more porous sponge layer.

Thank you very much for your very comprehensive answer David, makes perfect sense. Great post, thank you very much once again.

[kareemthedream33]

That seems pretty standard for Toyota and other cars in that class. However, based on your story, you were lied to and thus I totally understand your frustration. Even those benzes and BMW's would notice "pleather" if they really had a good look around their cars. You have to spend quite a bit of money on a car before every inch of leather is 100% genuine. My 911 came with a "full leather package" option which basically covers the entire interior in full leather (door sides, over the dash, etc). That was like a $2800 option.