Need help w/possible fake LV

[Incurable]

I don't know if this can/will go anywhere or not but... I work with a guy who was sporting what appeared to be a 16610LV today. He claimed he bought it at an undisclosed price but WAY cheaper than it's actual worth. He was being rather evasive about how much and where he bought it... He claimed the serial number appeared correct and that he had removed the case back and the markings inside the back appeared legit as well. No comments about the movement itself. He admitted it may be a relica or worse... stolen considering the price he paid. Hmmm...

Here's my question. Are there any tell-tale clues you fine folks can give me to look for when spotting a fake. All the obvious signs seem legit such as 3 dot crown, laser etched crystal, exposed 3rd oring on the crown tube, etc. Any dial subtlties, etc. you can point me to would be appreciated. My curiosity has got me going on this one. I realize there's no such thing as an instant-expert course on spotting replicas but any tips would be helpful. Thanks in advance...

[Ronnie Rolex]

Pat,

If he stated HE opened the case back then I'm not sure if he's being a straight shooter. If he says a jeweler opened it up and said the parts appeared genuine (assuming he/she has experience with Rolexes) then I would say its legit. The case backs usually require a special tool to remove and I doubt he would have bought one just to check out his watch.

[Tools]

Pat,

You mention the laser etching on the crystal.

That is tough to fake...It is on fake watches, but it is very visible on them with the naked eye.

The actual etching is almost impossible to see without some aid, such as a 10x loupe, or very faintly fisible if turned to a correct angle with the light....still..if it's very obvious, then it may be a replica..

However, if your a novice, then a quick course in Rolex spotting is meaningless as the latest fakes are very, very good..

Just enjoy yours and don't concern yorself with what anybody else has..

[Incurable]

Thanks... I've been Googling 'fake spotting' and come up with some starter items to check out. He claims his father was a watch 'tinkerer' and he actually had the case back tool for Rolex. I was checking out my coronet laser etchings and, if I get the chance, I'll compare his to see if it's the real deal or not. In the end, Larry you're right. It doesn't really matter other than the idea it may be stolen really does bother me. If it's a replica, it would settle better with me and qualify his claim of the 'really cheap' purchase price. I don't really want to have a ethical battle with this so maybe don't look, don't tell may be the best course of action. Thanks again guys...

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Originally Posted by Incurable

Here's my question. Are there any tell-tale clues you fine folks can give me to look for when spotting a fake.....I realize there's no such thing as an instant-expert course on spotting replicas but any tips would be helpful. Thanks in advance...

Here is a nice link about FAKE and REAL Sub LV's:

"Interesting comparison between REAL and FAKE "LV" ". CLICK!

Probably the most extensive overview over LV fakes todate.

[Incurable]

Excellent, Bo... I also found this which is very helpful as well

The Submariner is the most popular Rolex replica watch on the internet. It is often difficult these days to spot as a fake. The best quality fakes are also called Swiss Grade 1's and are so good, a secondary kind of scam marker has developed on eBay and other auction web sites. Swiss Grade 1 Rolex reproductions are auctioned off every week as genuine watches to those buyers who cannot believe their good fortune at running into a once in a life time super deal on a genuine Rolex watch. What those buyers find out the hard way is that the "deal of a life time" comes around every week on eBay!

Here is what you need to know to help spot a fake Rolex Submariner; but sometimes it's very difficult!

1. The bezel on a genuine Submariner turns only in one direction: counter clockwise. Fakes often turn in both directions or in other words, they are bi-directional. All high quality fake Swiss Grade 1's are correct in this feature. So even if the bezel turns in the correct direction, this doesn't mean it's a genuine Submariner.

2. Bezel clicks. It takes 120 'clicks' to make a full circle on a genuine Submariner. Fakes often fail to copy this feature correctly. Quick test: count the clicks for a quarter of a turn. You should count 30 clicks. 30 x 4 == 120 just like a real one. So even if the bezel makes a 120 clicks, this doesn't mean it's a real Submariner.

3. Movement inside. All Swiss Grade 1 Rolex replicas have an ETA movement inside. These are 25 jewels but many replica web scams tell you they are 27 jewels. They are not because ETA does not make a 27 jewel mechanical movement. The ETA does a beautiful job at replicating the second hand sweep of the genuine Rolex movement. It used to be this was a big clue as to whether or not a Rolex was real or not. You can no longer count on it. So even if the second hand "sweeps smoothly" to the naked eye, it is really quickly moving 8 times per second, just like on a real Rolex. Cheaper movements (non ETA) in the Submariner replicas are often still difficult to determine what kind of movement is inside based on watching the second hand sweep.

4. The 50th Anniversary Submariner with the green bezel insert. This is one of the most popular Submariners and is one of the most copied. The biggest flaw when looking at a genuine 50th Submariner (known as a "Greenie" due to the green bezel insert color or also known as the LV) is to check the case for lug holes. Rolex stopped making lug holes on their Submariner cases before they started to make the LV. Some replicas are made with the old style cases. So if you see someone selling an LV as genuine and it has lug holes...better run away as fast as you can.

5. LV dial. The LV is the ONLY Submariner where at the 6 o'clock position, the words SWISS MADE span and touch 5 minute markers. This is known as a "5 ticks" dial. ALL other Submariners have their words SWISS MADE touch only 3 minute markers, thus they are known as having 3 tick dials. If you see an LV for sale with a "3 tick" dial, it is a fake. If you see a standard SS Submariner 16610 model (non LV) that has a 5 tick dial, it is a fake. Update: I am seeing more and more genuine "3 tick" LV's showing up on the internet at genuine Rolex watch forums. Either Rolex is now producing 3 tick LV's or people who have the Swiss Grade 1 fakes are passing them off as real. It's difficult to know. Buying a genuine LV from anyone other than an Authorized (Rolex) Dealer is extremely risky.

6. LV Submariner. The LV uses the new date font with the 'closed' 6 and 9 numbers. If you see an LV for sale that has the older style open 6 and 9 it is a fake.

7. LV Submariner. The LV uses what Rolex calls the Maxi Dial. It is the only Submariner using it. Along with this Maxi Dial, on the LV, are what is called the "Fat Hands". The LV is the only Submariner using hour and minute hands that are 'fatter' than the hands normally seen on all of the other Rolex Submariners. Sometimes you will see an LV for sale that does not have the Fat Hands. Run away as fast as you can!

In summary.

Other than the LV differences which I have mentioned, it can be almost impossible to spot a fake Swiss Grade 1 Rolex Submariner. The only way to know for sure is to take the watch into an Rolex authorized dealer or other high end watch shop and have them remove the case back and see what kind of movement is inside. That's the only way to know for sure. The Two Tone Blue dial Submariners are a classic Rolex and are all but impossible to visually verify if one is real or not. Same for the Stainless Steel (SS) Black dial classic model 16610. You may not be able to tell a real one from a fake one unless you have the back removed and check the movement inside. If you're going to try and buy a used Rolex Submariner on the internet, it is critical that you know who you are buying from.

Source: Antique Time

[timebroker]

Excellent spotting list.

[Ed Rooney]

The best fakes are nearly perfect. The dials are much better now. The shoulders are getting closer, but one thing I found on a fake ETA GMT was that the bezel did not turn smoothly, and the handwinding was not smooth. The fakers just don't seem to put as much effort into those things since they are generally selling them on the web now. Also the reason that most of them have that R serial.

The laser-etched coronet is a good point. On a fake, you can easily see the etching. You can even see it in a good photo. On a real Rolex, you would be hard pressed to see the etching or capture it with a typical point & shoot Canon.

Ask him if it said 25-jewels on the movement, with a big coronet etched into the rotor.

I think it's fake. he bought it for $100 and now he's playing a "maybe it's fake, but I got it for nothing so who cares".

[daunwaun]

its probably a fake

[Incurable]

Update: He wasn't wearing it today. I offered to validate whether it was a replica or not. He declined. He said he doesn't really want to know... I don't know what is going on with him but, thanks to Bo's excellent thread, I'm prepared to give this thing a good inspection if he ever gives me the opportunity. All things considered, he's copping a 'weird' attitude about it and my BS meter is pinned. Something's fishy but I doubt I'll ever get the opportunity to know one way or the other... Thanks for all the help.

[vh_bu98]

I'm curious, why do you care so much if it's fake or not?

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Originally Posted by vh_bu98

I'm curious, why do you care so much if it's fake or not?

Say what??

[vh_bu98]

Originally Posted by Spacedweller

Say what??

I would only be concern if a Rolex is a fake if someone was trying to sell it to me. I don't see the point of trying to find out if a coworker's watch is a fake or not.

Lets look at the two possible outcomes here. If it's an authentic LV, the guy got a really good deal and Incurable would probably feel crappy for suspecting that it was a fake. If it does end up being a fake, Incurable would feel good about himself, but there's friction between him and this coworker. Nobody wins in this situation.

And seriously, I would be annoyed if one of my coworkers accused me of wearing a fake Rolex.

[Incurable]

Originally Posted by vh_bu98

I would only be concern if a Rolex is a fake if someone was trying to sell it to me. I don't see the point of trying to find out if a coworker's watch is a fake or not.

Lets look at the two possible outcomes here. If it's an authentic LV, the guy got a really good deal and Incurable would probably feel crappy for suspecting that it was a fake.

Nah... If he knowingly/willingly bought a replica, it makes no nevermind to me.

If it does end up being a fake, Incurable would feel good about himself, but there's friction between him and this coworker. Nobody wins in this situation.

There's no victory to be had here. I wouldn't feel good or bad. It's about the truth, not me.

And seriously, I would be annoyed if one of my coworkers accused me of wearing a fake Rolex.

I'm really not accusing him of anything. I am not taking a morally superior position on this at all. If it's actually stolen, I would have a problem with that. Realistically, I am not going to get the opportunity to discover that one way or the other. The fact that he seems ambivalent about it does serve to help me further understand him and his borders. I don't think he wants to know because it would become a moral dilemma to him as well if it were genuine and stolen. In that case, you're right, it's a no-win situation.

[Hellcat65]

Bo..I did infact look over your post on how to spot a fake. Unfortunatly, other than the fact that the watch used in your post was a bad example of a replica the only real tell tales signs were the horrible LEC and that poor example of a lum dot. You could look at a GOOD fake all day Long and never be able to tell the difference.
The ONLY reason I point this out is because they are getting so good and so advanced that you soon will not be able to tell the difference in the two. Its common among fakes to have a Gen. Bezel incert done to upgrade the bezel, that makes it all the more convincing. As far as the LEC, that has imporved vastly as well, as far as printing youd have to have a Gen. next to the one in question to even begin to disect it.
I believe the ONLY way to tell a fake from gen. is to open the watch up and inspect the movement...period. If someone is thinking they are getting a good deal on a watch, its most likely too good to be true. Save yourself the headache and wonder and just go to the AD like its been said a thousand times before.
Ill probably get flamed for this post but thats cool, Ive been flamed before.......

[timebroker]

These days the only way you can buy at a 'too good to be true' price but genuine Rolex is at small auctions or through advertisements.
Not even 5 years ago here in South America you could buy a bag full of Rolex for half the price, now everybody has internet/books meaning better informed sellers so 'the too good' will be exactly what it states in 99%.
To avoid fakes it's best to stay away from Rolex imo

[Incurable]

Why do I care? Good question I guess...

Having owned genuine Rolex watches since the 1980's and a big fan of the brand, this is my first contact w/a possible replica watch and I'm just curious that's all. The notion that he doesn't care, want to know and is apparently denying me access just feeds the fire. Why? Because I'm an engineer by trade, inquisitive by nature and always a seeker of truth.

Worse case scenario: Is it genuine and stolen? I do not in any way, shape or form endorse this practice. It would be a comfort to me to discover it's a replica as opposed to the alternative.

Finally, it's a learning opportunity and challenge. To find and see the 'flaws' for myself would be educational and serve to further my knowledge of the brand. It's not necessarily a rational decision on my part, I have no goal or agenda. Beyond that, just because I do, no need to justify really.