1968 Submariner

[Poloplayer]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a '68 Submariner and am in discussion with a gentleman about this 'Red' which looks really lovely to me.
Its a lot of money, which I don't mind paying, but it needs to be right and so I would be extremely interested in your informed opinions based on these two pics.

Thanks for your help, Giles



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[Kiwinz]

I don't think this be a 68 one.

Looks more like a MK4 which is a bit later.

[TimeToGo]

Welcome to the Forum!

As mentioned, this dial is a later production dial. A 68 would have a Meters First Dial.

[Vincent65]

wouldn't the earliest ones (69, I thought) be M-first?

[TimeToGo]

Here is some background information on the reds:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

[Poloplayer]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

Welcome to the Forum!

As mentioned, this dial is a later production dial. A 68 would have a Meters First Dial.

Thank you - saved me a lot of cash on the wrong thing :-)

[pdoukas]

Originally Posted by Giles Massingham

Thank you - saved me a lot of cash on the wrong thing :-)

Glad you passed. Take your time with a red sub purchase, it'll be worth it in the long run. There are a lot of posts in he regarding reds so do your research. There are a lot of folks in here that really know their watches so don't be nervous about asking. It took me nearly 2 years to find the one I would be happy with, so take your time.

[swish77]

Couldn't this indeed be from 1968 and have a replacement dial? Let's say the original owner took it for service in 1973 and Rolex determined that the tritium had aged enough to warrant a replacement dial. Still, I think it's clear that the dial is not original to the case, although that wouldn't be a deal-breaker for some watch lovers, as long as they know about it. It would also affect the price, of course. Good luck with your search!

[pdoukas]

Originally Posted by swish77

Couldn't this indeed be from 1968 and have a replacement dial? Let's say the original owner took it for service in 1973 and Rolex determined that the tritium had aged enough to warrant a replacement dial. Still, I think it's clear that the dial is not original to the case, although that wouldn't be a deal-breaker for some watch lovers, as long as they know about it. It would also affect the price, of course. Good luck with your search!

It could be a replacement dial, but it isn't a 1968 red sub. Earliest known examples are from 1969. If a 1968 existed, I'd be the first to jump on it. Easiest thing to do is ask the seller for the serial number and a picture of the case back to determine the year. The watch in question is over at VRF and the seller was interested in a trade for a Daytona.

[strafer_kid]

Beautiful watch all the same!

[paltak]

Originally Posted by pdoukas

It could be a replacement dial, but it isn't a 1968 red sub. Earliest known examples are from 1969. If a 1968 existed, I'd be the first to jump on it. Easiest thing to do is ask the seller for the serial number and a picture of the case back to determine the year. The watch in question is over at VRF and the seller was interested in a trade for a Daytona.

I noticed this 1967 Red Sub for sale, any thoughts? Thanks! http://www.hqmilton.com/index.php/si...first_mark_22/

[Poloplayer]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

wouldn't the earliest ones (69, I thought) be M-first?

Thank you

[Poloplayer]

By the way, I still want a '68 Sub - ideally a Red (if they go back that far) so if anyone knows one...

[pdoukas]

Definitely not a 1968. Although no documented source is available, the earliest available red sub is 1969, and it would be a Meters first dial. I've seen this 1680 recently, let me look again and go from there.

[Poloplayer]

Originally Posted by pdoukas

It could be a replacement dial, but it isn't a 1968 red sub. Earliest known examples are from 1969. If a 1968 existed, I'd be the first to jump on it. Easiest thing to do is ask the seller for the serial number and a picture of the case back to determine the year. The watch in question is over at VRF and the seller was interested in a trade for a Daytona.

That's right - it is that watch. It's a beauty alright but if it's a redial is it too pricey at $9k?

[pdoukas]

Originally Posted by Giles Massingham

That's right - it is that watch. It's a beauty alright but if it's a redial is it too pricey at $9k?

It's a MK4 dial, so at earliest it is 1970. Get the serial number from watch, and picture of inside of case back and you'll have more info based on that. I don't think it is a redial, but it may be a replacement if the serial number and case back determine it is a earlier sub that should have been meters first. But, as I said, earliest known red subs were meters first beginning at about 2.1 million in 1969.

[FrankNYC]

If the dial has not been relumed, 9K would actually be a fair price. It has a fat font insert, nice off-white-to-brownish patina, dial is in good shape (which alone is worth 3.5K+ from what I've seen)... Like others have said, serial # would give you an indication of year

[Robbyvm]

No 1968 red subs out there...

[Poloplayer]

Originally Posted by Robbyvm

No 1968 red subs out there...

Shame :-( going to have to choose, one or the other.

[RC2]

Originally Posted by timetogo

welcome to the forum!

As mentioned, this dial is a later production dial. A 68 would have a meters first dial.

x2

[Pete17]

No such thing as a '68 red Sub I'm afraid.
I and others here have seen a lot of meters first red subs and the earliest casebacks we've seen are a I/69.
I have seen I/69 on both Mk1 and Mk2 red subs.

However, Philipp Stahl I believe has a rare, non-production, prototype red sub without minute markers on the dial but I'm not aware of the date code on the caseback, if any.

A lot of books written a few years back state red subs first appeared in 66 or 67. Not sure what they're basing that info on.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Pete17

No such thing as a '68 red Sub I'm afraid.
I and others here have seen a lot of meters first red subs and the earliest casebacks we've seen are a I/69.
I have seen I/69 on both Mk1 and Mk2 red subs.

However, Philipp Stahl I believe has a rare, non-production, prototype red sub without minute markers on the dial but I'm not aware of the date code on the caseback, if any.

A lot of books written a few years back state red subs first appeared in 66 or 67. Not sure what they're basing that info on.

"Not sure what they're basing that info on."

There were guessing which we still see going on today. Somebody writes something somewhere, sometime and everyone takes it as gospel and as we all know, there is plenty of incorrect information out there. I see it often.

[Kingair]

Everyday I learn a little bit more . . .

Thanks guys

HAGM

[Poloplayer]

So, I've raised my concerns with the vendor who seems like a really nice guy and he's sent me some pics of the opened case.
Everything seems to match up to a 1970 watch (does the series 1V dial or is that later?) apart from the bracelet which is stamped "A" (1976?)
Any additional thoughts gratefully received as I really want to buy this watch but I want it to be right.






Thanks as always,

Giles

[pdoukas]

MK4 dial for 1970 would be correct. Now that's been established, we still need more info. Do you have images of the case, specifically the lugs, and what comes with the watch. I saw a hang tag and a box, but are any kind of papers coming with it? Is it keeping time? Does it need a service? I'm on my phone right now so i can't really judge the movement for corrosion. I think, as it stands, you're looking at about 10K.

[pdoukas]

Ok, saw the last post and original post at VRF. Looks like an honest example of a 1970 MKIV red sub. I have 3 concerns:

1) insert looks a little funny. Kinda like it was painted, but that could be the pictures.
2) date disk is obscured. You need to see if it is silver with open 6's and 9's.
3) last service was 12 years ago. Might as well factor in $800 from a competent watchmaker to bring it up to snuff.

His price is worthwhile, but, you need to look at the lugs or get us pictures.

[Poloplayer]

Originally Posted by pdoukas

Ok, saw the last post and original post at VRF. Looks like an honest example of a 1970 MKIV red sub. I have 3 concerns:

1) insert looks a little funny. Kinda like it was painted, but that could be the pictures.
2) date disk is obscured. You need to see if it is silver with open 6's and 9's.
3) last service was 12 years ago. Might as well factor in $800 from a competent watchmaker to bring it up to snuff.

His price is worthwhile, but, you need to look at the lugs or get us pictures.

Is this helpful?






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[Pete17]

Looks good to me.
A nice example.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by Pete17

Looks good to me.
A nice example.

x2 looks very clean and nice!

[Frogman4me]

We need a shot between the lugs at the 6,o'clock position to determine the age of the case.