get experience to detect fake

[rioc]

hi everyone
excuse my poor english , i ll hope to do no mistake
i m very interesting in this part of the forum
is it possible to give more explanations when u answer that it is a fake ?
so everyone can improve his knowlege in fake item
thanks

[MonBK]

Sorry no, just in general.

[subtona]

no, it would be counterproductive.

[financeman]

Unfortunately by improving everyone's knowledge on how it is a fake would also improve the counterfeiter's knowledge on how to get better. The best thing to do is research and read and look at pictures of the real thing. Soon enough you will be able to spot them without anyone pointing out anything.
Btw, welcome to the forum

[rioc]

in fact , i agree with u , and i m going to study picture but many time and thanks to your action of reporting , the fake sale has disepard

[Goiguidoc]

Welcome to the best Rolex Forum.
I'm sure you will find a lot of info here.

[crowncollection]

Well don't burn me, but i disagree, education is proven to be an integral part in reducing any problem, if we look at the rules of the forum

"So as to enable better identification of issues the following guidelines where possible are recommended to be included in your thread:

• Title of listing as title of thread (unless there are multiple items)
• A link to the listing or site.
• The sellers name or listing number (makes tracking easier)
• Reasons for your concern of authenticity or issues with the item.• Item description.
• Item photo.

The greater majority of people on this forum are against scammers and fakes and the more people know what to check for the less fakes are going to be bought on web sites or by unsuspecting members. If we are to subscribe to this philosphy we will tell people nothing, we need to completely remove many of the posts from the reference section.

There are posts by esteem members trying to help others and spread there knowledge to other members of the community to protect then against scammers in the Reference section on this site.

1: how to tell a fake 1680 case and i do not know how many times I have heard about long E's mentioned in the watchout section, does this really help counterfieters, if they wanted to fix it they could find the info pretty easily.

A google search is not hard and the first thing that comes up is http://www.google.com.au/search?sour......0.0...1ac.1.

2: clasp references codes and endpieces
3: correct bracelet references, date codes and endpieces and correct model numbers for the different styles
4: correct box codes
5: how to tell a fake tudor sub dial
3: how to tell a fake GMT insert and many more

I want it to be clear that i do not feel these members are doing anything wrong and are an asset to this forum.

Sure, there are new members who just join to run a fake watch by members before sale and to these people we give very little information in general, they tend to ask direct questions like, tell me why do you think it's fake ? and are generally easily to weed out from genuine members posting real concerns. Should these educational threads be cancelled and deleted as they can help counterfieter if you look at it from that perspective, I personally do not think so.

The more eyes we have that know, the more fakes we can stop being sold and that will feedback as less incentive to produce them with reduced sales. Education has always been a large part historically, of eliminating or reducing at least, problems of any kind. The high end fakers can buy a real watch and study it, it costs more than a complete set of real rolex models to set up the equipment required to closely reproduce such watches, they are also quite capable of doing an internet search also. Just my two cents.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

Well don't burn me, but i disagree, education is proven to be an integral part in reducing any problem, if we look at the rules of the forum

"So as to enable better identification of issues the following guidelines where possible are recommended to be included in your thread:

• Title of listing as title of thread (unless there are multiple items)
• A link to the listing or site.
• The sellers name or listing number (makes tracking easier)
• Reasons for your concern of authenticity or issues with the item.• Item description.
• Item photo.

The greater majority of people on this forum are against scammers and fakes and the more people know what to check for the less fakes are going to be bought on web sites or by unsuspecting members. If we are to subscribe to this philosphy we will tell people nothing, we need to completely remove many of the posts from the reference section.

There are posts by esteem members trying to help others and spread there knowledge to other members of the community to protect then against scammers in the Reference section on this site.

1: how to tell a fake 1680 case and i do not know how many times I have heard about long E's mentioned in the watchout section, does this really help counterfieters, if they wanted to fix it they could find the info pretty easily.

A google search is not hard and the first thing that comes up is http://www.google.com.au/search?sour......0.0...1ac.1.

2: clasp references codes and endpieces
3: correct bracelet references, date codes and endpieces and correct model numbers for the different styles
4: correct box codes
5: how to tell a fake tudor sub dial
3: how to tell a fake GMT insert and many more

I want it to be clear that i do not feel these members are doing anything wrong and are an asset to this forum.

Sure, there are new members who just join to run a fake watch by members before sale and to these people we give very little information in general, they tend to ask direct questions like, tell me why do you think it's fake ? and are generally easily to weed out from genuine members posting real concerns. Should these educational threads be cancelled and deleted as they can help counterfieter if you look at it from that perspective, I personally do not think so.

The more eyes we have that know, the more fakes we can stop being sold and that will feedback as less incentive to produce them with reduced sales. Education has always been a large part historically, of eliminating or reducing at least, problems of any kind. The high end fakers can buy a real watch and study it, it costs more than a complete set of real rolex models to set up the equipment required to closely reproduce such watches, they are also quite capable of doing an internet search also. Just my two cents.

I agree with you David...in general.

But I also think that new members should do some research before a first post like this one.

The Forum is up to its neck in descriptions of fake watches - a little searching by new members would prove that they are keen to learn IMO.

Just my 2c.

Welcome to the Forum mon ami rioc.

[Ditch]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

Well don't burn me, but i disagree, education is proven to be an integral part in reducing any problem, if we look at the rules of the forum

"So as to enable better identification of issues the following guidelines where possible are recommended to be included in your thread:

• Title of listing as title of thread (unless there are multiple items)
• A link to the listing or site.
• The sellers name or listing number (makes tracking easier)
• Reasons for your concern of authenticity or issues with the item.• Item description.
• Item photo.

The greater majority of people on this forum are against scammers and fakes and the more people know what to check for the less fakes are going to be bought on web sites or by unsuspecting members. If we are to subscribe to this philosphy we will tell people nothing, we need to completely remove many of the posts from the reference section.

There are posts by esteem members trying to help others and spread there knowledge to other members of the community to protect then against scammers in the Reference section on this site.

1: how to tell a fake 1680 case and i do not know how many times I have heard about long E's mentioned in the watchout section, does this really help counterfieters, if they wanted to fix it they could find the info pretty easily.

A google search is not hard and the first thing that comes up is http://www.google.com.au/search?sour......0.0...1ac.1.

2: clasp references codes and endpieces
3: correct bracelet references, date codes and endpieces and correct model numbers for the different styles
4: correct box codes
5: how to tell a fake tudor sub dial
3: how to tell a fake GMT insert and many more

I want it to be clear that i do not feel these members are doing anything wrong and are an asset to this forum.

Sure, there are new members who just join to run a fake watch by members before sale and to these people we give very little information in general, they tend to ask direct questions like, tell me why do you think it's fake ? and are generally easily to weed out from genuine members posting real concerns. Should these educational threads be cancelled and deleted as they can help counterfieter if you look at it from that perspective, I personally do not think so.

The more eyes we have that know, the more fakes we can stop being sold and that will feedback as less incentive to produce them with reduced sales. Education has always been a large part historically, of eliminating or reducing at least, problems of any kind. The high end fakers can buy a real watch and study it, it costs more than a complete set of real rolex models to set up the equipment required to closely reproduce such watches, they are also quite capable of doing an internet search also. Just my two cents.

Agree with you 100%. The idea that some consumers playing spot the difference on a forum educates fakers with significant turnover and a great deal of capital in machinery & facilities is utterly absurd. They aren't individual's whittling away at a piece of wood in their garden shed. They will have bought the real deal already if it is currently available on the market. If it isn't currently available they probably have hackers working to procure the schematics.

The only people we might help without intending to, would be people that sell (not manufacture) fakes, since they might be able to purchase somewhat more convincing stock.

[financeman]

I agree with you David. I was going by what I have been old every time I asked a question about a fake or how to spot one. It seemed like every time I asked I was told to study pictures of the real things and of the fakes and eventually I would be ae to tell on my own. I figured that this was a unwritten rule of the forum to help keep "secrets" from people who would use them against us.
Thanks David for the detailed post and explaining in short how the identification of fakes should be taught.

[kooltzar]

I am in the anti-counterfeiting business as a Brand Protection Manager for a long time in the fashion industry and I can tell you that counterfeiters do not need such Forums to educate themselves. In the beginning, we also thought that for example on the product identification manuals we provide to customs and police we should not give away too much information, as counterfeiters might get access to them by leaks and take advantage of the information. But then we realized that they are always one step ahead anyway. We have seen counterfeit products of models on the market that were not even out on the real market yet. They have enough access to originals that they can copy one to one. Counterfeiters go after what model is hot at the moment and get their sources. That is why you see so many red subs around for example. (Ok, the red sub is also the easiest, because all you have to do is to paint red over white)

[J. Alan]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

I am in the anti-counterfeiting business as a Brand Protection Manager for a long time in the fashion industry and I can tell you that counterfeiters do not need such Forums to educate themselves. In the beginning, we also thought that for example on the product identification manuals we provide to customs and police we should not give away too much information, as counterfeiters might get access to them by leaks and take advantage of the information. But then we realized that they are always one step ahead anyway. We have seen counterfeit products of models on the market that were not even out on the real market yet. They have enough access to originals that they can copy one to one. Counterfeiters go after what model is hot at the moment and get their sources. That is why you see so many red subs around for example. (Ok, the red sub is also the easiest, because all you have to do is to paint red over white)

So True! -- "They have enough access to originals that they can copy one to one." Anyone with enough capital can purchase the real McCoy and set-up production machinery for a scam Rolex enterprise. The fakes are getting better and better and you almost need to get an ex-Rolex watchmaker (like David's dad) to verify originality. Scarey times, indeed!!

J. Alan

[crowncollection]

Originally Posted by J. Alan

So True! -- "They have enough access to originals that they can copy one to one." Anyone with enough capital can purchase the real McCoy and set-up production machinery for a scam Rolex enterprise. The fakes are getting better and better and you almost need to get an ex-Rolex watchmaker (like David's dad) to verify originality. Scarey times, indeed!!

J. Alan

Thanks for the kind words about my father.
His knowledge is incredible especially about the vintage movements, I guess you only get today knowledge from servicing hundreds. He is nearly 80 now and retired near 20 years and had a bad run of health for the last few years. He prefers to work on clocks, easier on the old eyes. up to recently he serviced my watches for free
But takes a month


However, with the new stuff we all learn everyday, he is not up with the latest unfortunately. We sometimes have quite funny chats from two different perspectives i guess,I want to talk vintage Rolex and he tells me how this always broke or the trigger screw movements had this problem or some other part always needed replacement and he had to fix so many, they were a pain in the neck but in different words

[subtona]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

I am in the anti-counterfeiting business as a Brand Protection Manager for a long time in the fashion industry and I can tell you that counterfeiters do not need such Forums to educate themselves. In the beginning, we also thought that for example on the product identification manuals we provide to customs and police we should not give away too much information, as counterfeiters might get access to them by leaks and take advantage of the information. But then we realized that they are always one step ahead anyway. We have seen counterfeit products of models on the market that were not even out on the real market yet. They have enough access to originals that they can copy one to one. Counterfeiters go after what model is hot at the moment and get their sources. That is why you see so many red subs around for example. (Ok, the red sub is also the easiest, because all you have to do is to paint red over white)

Originally Posted by J. Alan

So True! -- "They have enough access to originals that they can copy one to one." Anyone with enough capital can purchase the real McCoy and set-up production machinery for a scam Rolex enterprise. The fakes are getting better and better and you almost need to get an ex-Rolex watchmaker (like David's dad) to verify originality. Scarey times, indeed!!

J. Alan

imho, if this were accurate then there would be no bad fakes, readily identifiable as counterfeit ... but as bad fakes are in abundance, it appears someone would benefit from more knowledge.

just because they have the original to copy, does not mean they have an eye for every detail.

take for example legitimate business trying to convert instruction manuals from english to chinese or japanese and vice versa. has anyone ever enjoyed trying to decipher the mess that is sometimes the end product?

in this forum, we are not trying to further the counterfeiters cause, thats all.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by subtona

imho, if this were accurate then there would be no bad fakes, readily identifiable as counterfeit ... but as bad fakes are in abundance, it appears someone would benefit from more knowledge.

just because they have the original to copy, does not mean they have an eye for every detail.

take for example legitimate business trying to convert instruction manuals from english to chinese or japanese and vice versa. has anyone ever enjoyed trying to decipher the mess that is sometimes the end product?

in this forum, we are not trying to further the counterfeiters cause, thats all.

Finally, a voice of reason.

[joseluu]

Originally Posted by subtona

imho, if this were accurate then there would be no bad fakes, readily identifiable as counterfeit ... but as bad fakes are in abundance, it appears someone would benefit from more knowledge.

just because they have the original to copy, does not mean they have an eye for every detail.

take for example legitimate business trying to convert instruction manuals from english to chinese or japanese and vice versa. has anyone ever enjoyed trying to decipher the mess that is sometimes the end product?

in this forum, we are not trying to further the counterfeiters cause, thats all.

Don´t be mistaken: if there are bad fakes is because they are cheaper to manufacture, not because the fakers couldn´t do better. A good fake costs more than many a good watch (not Rolex, of course).

As for the translations, and that is my field, the question is exactly the same. The reason why you cannot understand some of them is because they have been done with cheap means (normally with automatic translation programs).

Last, as apparently there is only one voice of reason, and I am getting used to that, THIS IS THE END FROM ME (I know you hope so).

P.S. Someone should tell all stupid goverments in the world to stop telling people how to spot fake money. They seem to be working for the counterfeiters.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Finally, a voice of reason.

Mon

Originally Posted by joseluu

Don´t be mistaken: if there are bad fakes is because they are cheaper to manufacture, not because the fakers couldn´t do better. A good fake costs more than many a good watch (not Rolex, of course).

As for the translations, and that is my field, the question is exactly the same. The reason why you cannot understand some of them is because they have been done with cheap means (normally with automatic translation programs).

Last, as apparently there is only one voice of reason, and I am getting used to that, THIS IS THE END FROM ME (I know you hope so).

P.S. Someone should tell all stupid goverments in the world to stop telling people how to spot fake money. They seem to be working for the counterfeiters.

its the same case with most things, they evolve in increments by outdoing each other, create a bank safe and someone creates a way to break in... put an engraved rehaut on the watch and counterfeiters add an engraved rehaut to the fakes... install virus protection and they create a new virus....

of course they can be made better, its the same person on both sides of the fence designing and counter designing....

don't be put off because this forum is not a vehicle for exposing counterfeiting flaws, sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, a person that spends enough time here will develop the education from paying attention vs a person who reads 1 line on someones opinion as to what is fake, may not develop a comprehensive understanding of the difference between a fake and a model that is rare and sought after.
Asking the forum to describe in detail the fake attributes is asking for a shortcut, put in the time and you'll learn about vintage, rare and unique watches vs fakes... and from here a member will have more to contribute, making your experience on the forum both enriching to yourself and to others.

[joseluu]

Let me take this oportunity to put a word in.

Many of the fakes you pinpoint are for sale on ebay o similar sites (I am thinking of craiglist too), but those listings get closed when reported, o just with time, and the images of the "culprits" dissapear.

I would propose to include some of the most "telling" pictures in the post denouncing the fake. By doing that, we could always refer to those pictures and learn more. By the way, I know that crowncollection does that from time to time.

What do you think?

[MonBK]

I think rule #5 says it all:

5. THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR THE DISCUSSION OF FAKE WATCHES, BRACELETS ETC, and your opinion are about FAKE WATCHES and who makes them, sells them, buys them and wears them is NOT welcome.

[joseluu]

Originally Posted by MonBK

I think rule #5 says it all:

5. THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR THE DISCUSSION OF FAKE WATCHES, BRACELETS ETC, and your opinion are about FAKE WATCHES and who makes them, sells them, buys them and wears them is NOT welcome.

It is true. It is also true that that rule collides with the purpose and even the title of this subforum.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by joseluu

It is true. It is also true that that rule collides with the purpose and even the title of this subforum.

Not at all, to warn members is perfectly in order but to continue the discussion of why it's fake is not.

[crowncollection]

Originally Posted by MonBK

I think rule #5 says it all:

5. THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR THE DISCUSSION OF FAKE WATCHES, BRACELETS ETC, and your opinion are about FAKE WATCHES and who makes them, sells them, buys them and wears them is NOT welcome.

This is a good point, lets get back to the main purpose of this forum watches which we all love, we seem to be going off track lately in this section and forgotten this forums focus.

I have posted a thread in reference section for those who want to learn about authentic hallmarks.
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=265249

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

This is a good point, lets get back to the main purpose of this forum watches which we all love, we seem to be going off track lately in this section and forgotten this forums focus.

I have posted a thread in reference section for those who want to learn about authentic hallmarks.
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=265249

Just read it, great post.

[joseluu]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

This is a good point, lets get back to the main purpose of this forum watches which we all love, we seem to be going off track lately in this section and forgotten this forums focus.

I have posted a thread in reference section for those who want to learn about authentic hallmarks.
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=265249

Holy guacamole! That is an awsome post. Some sort of hallmark encyclopedia. Thanks.

[joseluu]

There is also rule #6:

6. Any allegation that a watch is a 'fake' must be supported with reason/s otherwise the post will be removed forthwith without notice.

[financeman]

I read it last night and that is the sort if thing I love to read. We dont have to discuss the fakes if we discuss the real things and become experts in what should be there the. It will be automatic to see the things that are not right.
Thanks, David

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by joseluu
Don´t be mistaken: if there are bad fakes is because they are cheaper to manufacture, not because the fakers couldn´t do better. A good fake costs more than many a good watch (not Rolex, of course).

I find this interesting.... First hand knowledge???

[joseluu]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Originally Posted by joseluu
Don´t be mistaken: if there are bad fakes is because they are cheaper to manufacture, not because the fakers couldn´t do better. A good fake costs more than many a good watch (not Rolex, of course).

I find this interesting.... First hand knowledge???

Your comment is offensive , uncalled for and completely out of order.

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by joseluu

Your comment is offensive , uncalled for and completely out of order.

Please explain. I was just curious about your comment. I was not trying to be offensive in anyway.

[joseluu]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Please explain. I was just curious about your comment. I was not trying to be offensive in anyway.

I thought we were all grown ups here. "Sorry" would have been much better.