How much does a chipped 1680 dial affect the sale price?

[The moose]

I posted a thread earlier about a red 1680 that I am currently looking to purchase. Tomorrow I will go and inspect the watch. The owner says it has some chips around 6 o clock. I read that if the chips are noticeable with the naked eye, it affects the value.
I have only one pic of the watch and you can see a bit of the "chipping" when you magnify the pic.
Does anyone know how much less a chipped dial should be compared to a non chipped one?

[Clay]

Everyone has his or her own idea as to what is or isn't acceptable…

I personally would never buy a watch with a chipped dial...

[bearone2]

if you buy it, take into consideration the cost of replacing the crystal/servicing the new watch & it'll depend how noticeable the chips are.

i don't see 'em in the pic.

[Beaumont Miller II]

This is something you have to keep in mind.
While you may never see a Red Sub on someone's wrist out in the "wild", it is not a rare watch to the vintage collector. There are always a couple in the market for sale at any given time. With many in the market for sale you want to buy the best your budget will allow. This is in contrast to other extremely rare references where the supply will never meet the demands of the vintage collector, think PP DRSD, 6538, 5510, etc. A chip on a hash mark or two may not be a deal breaker depending on how nice the case is. Peeling of the black paint on the periphery of a 1680 would cause me to pass. As to the decease in value, that will be different for each person you ask.

[The moose]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

This is something you have to keep in mind.
While you may never see a Red Sub on someone's wrist out in the "wild", it is not a rare watch to the vintage collector. There are always a couple in the market for sale at any given time. With many in the market for sale you want to buy the best your budget will allow. This is in contrast to other extremely rare references where the supply will never meet the demands of the vintage collector, think PP DRSD, 6538, 5510, etc. A chip on a hash mark or two may not be a deal breaker depending on how nice the case is. Peeling of the black paint on the periphery of a 1680 would cause me to pass. As to the decease in value, that will be different for each person you ask.

Great post! Thanks! How would I know what might be acceptable in terms of chip-damage? As far as a collector is concerned...

[The moose]

The chipping is just where the dial meets the rehaut. It might not even be chipping. Since English ain't my first language I am not sure what to call it...

[M4rkg4rd3n]

Is it chips or blistering to the finish of the dial?

[The moose]

Originally Posted by M4rkg4rd3n

Is it chips or blistering to the finish of the dial?

Haven't seen it live yet. From what I can see from the pic it's seems more likely to be blistering...that's probably better then chipping, right?
I am a complete noob when it comes to this matter

[Beaumont Miller II]

I don't want to split hairs, but when I think of a chip, it is typically in a larger hash mark under an hour marker where it meets the inside of the case.
Blistering might describe the defect of many matte Tudor dials such as the 7016 with its surface appearing blistered or bumpy.
The problem with the watch posted by the OP extends from the 27 to the 32 min hash marks at the bottom of the dial, and it appears that the problem is peeling. Where there was black paint and now it is brown in this area of the dial, that is likely the brass plate underneath and the paint has peeled off.

[joli160]

Several thousands less with chips on the dial imo.

[CrownMe]

Insert sure is faded

[springer]

Small chips on the outer edge of the dial on a 40-year-old watch isn't too significant in my opinion - especially if it is barely visible. This happens to dials due to the pressure on the outer edges from contact with the case. Sometimes they chip, sometimes they don't. Many vintage watches can be found that have dials with edge chipping or dial damage caused by "dragging" hands. The other issue with dials that can significantly affect the price is damaged tritium hour maker plots.

I wouldn't worry at all about the dial based on the photo that was posted. Significantly damaged dials is another proposition where the damage has a direct bearing on the price.

[cruvon]

Maybe ask the seller for a standalone dial pic if possible. From my observation and learning here, chips can be part of the hash mark tritium paint coming off which is a common problem when red subs/DRSDs are serviced which is less serious and could have a marginal impact on value depending on how many hash marks have this issue. For example, there is a chip on the 1 "O clock marker where part of the hash mark tritium paint has come off possibly when opening the case for servicing, due to the brittle nature of the tritium on red subs and DRSD's. That's the risk we take when service our red subs and DRSDs and the good sellers will clearly state this when selling.

Then there is the other type of chipping(for want of a better term to describe it) where the dial surface paint itself on the edge of the dial is damaged (improper dial removal, rust, etc.)consequently causing the base of the hash marks to be damaged. Usually multiple and grouped hash marks are affected and this might or might not be readily visible till the dial is inspected. This type could adversely affect watch value since would be considered as serious dial damage depending on how bad the damage is and the cause. Best post better pics or a standalone dial pic for the guys here to judge!

[Beaumont Miller II]

I would be very hesitant to ask anyone to remove a matte dial from a watch prior to me purchasing it from them. In addition, I certainly would not agree to take a matte dial out of a watch if asked by someone wanting to buy a watch from me. The reason is this is exactly how these dials get damaged, by removing them in the first place.
The matte dials from the very late 60's and very early 70's are particularly prone to this. This is in contrast to the matte dials of the later 70's such as the 1680 white and 5513 that do not suffer nearly as bad from this problem.
The proper procedure is to view the watch/dial under a 10X loupe during the pre agreed upon inspection period to insure that you are happy with your purchase.

Two more points if I may.

The other problem with viewing a loose dial is that almost all have some chips and marks here and there. The problem is when viewing the loose dial you don't know if the chips will be visible when the dial is mounted in the watch or hidden below the rehaut of the case, which is really what you want to know.

The other point is that while the Submariner gilt gloss dials are truly stunning and unfortunately suffer from their own maladies, chips on the dial are not one of them. This is because there is a very tiny gap between the outer edge of the dial and the case. If you look at the Submariners from the early 60's you will see what I am talking about.

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

I would be very hesitant to ask anyone to remove a matte dial from a watch prior to me purchasing it from them. In addition, I certainly would not agree to take a matte dial out of a watch if asked by someone wanting to buy a watch from me. The reason is this is exactly how these dials get damaged, by removing them in the first place.
The matte dials from the very late 60's and very early 70's are particularly prone to this. This is in contrast to the matte dials of the later 70's such as the 1680 white and 5513 that do not suffer nearly as bad from this problem.
The proper procedure is to view the watch/dial under a 10X loupe during the pre agreed upon inspection period to insure that you are happy with your purchase.

Two more points if I may.

The other problem with viewing a loose dial is that almost all have some chips and marks here and there. The problem is when viewing the loose dial you don't know if the chips will be visible when the dial is mounted in the watch or hidden below the rehaut of the case, which is really what you want to know.

The other point is that while the Submariner gilt gloss dials are truly stunning and unfortunately suffer from their own maladies, chips on the dial are not one of them. This is because there is a very tiny gap between the outer edge of the dial and the case. If you look at the Submariners from the early 60's you will see what I am talking about.

Thanks for the info John, quite a bit of the learning on chips came from your threads too:). On second thoughts true a loupe would serve just as well instead of risking taking the dial out but will still need expert eyes to judge moisture damage et al at the edges. Pity these watches were susceptible to these chipping issues.

[cruvon]

On an aside note, found an old thread on dial restoration by MY that I missed, quite an impressive restoration. Looks like chips of tritium paint can be painted over to mask chipping and dial edges can be repaired. I suppose original tritium can be sourced from other vintage watches too and reapplied so it won't glow.
So for those of us who value originality, how does one tell the difference between one that has and hasn't been repaired? Hard I would say, especially as these repair techniques get better and only the experts could really tell if at all.
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=277041

[mdw3]

This particular dial appears very damaged below six o'clock. The chips are easily apparent to the naked eye, and the damage cannot be fixed in a way that will reduce the diminution in value. It would sell at a significant discount to a perfect example and, even then, most collectors would not buy it even at the reduced rate. Unless a damaged red Submariner is the only type that will fall within your price budget, I would move on to search for a better one. To be honest, even if that were the case for your particular budget, I would encourage you to consider another model instead, where you might afford a more perfect (and hence collectible) example. Trust me when I say that stellar condition is everything these days, and the rest gets left behind. Also, while cool to some, the faded bezel insert in this instance appears to be a service insert sporting a luminova pearl. I would take a pass and give this watch a wide berth.

Michael

[The moose]

Originally Posted by mdw3

This particular dial appears very damaged below six o'clock. The chips are easily apparent to the naked eye, and the damage cannot be fixed in a way that will reduce the diminution in value. It would sell at a significant discount to a perfect example and, even then, most collectors would not buy it even at the reduced rate. Unless a damaged red Submariner is the only type that will fall within your price budget, I would move on to search for a better one. To be honest, even if that were the case for your particular budget, I would encourage you to consider another model instead, where you might afford a more perfect (and hence collectible) example. Trust me when I say that stellar condition is everything these days, and the rest gets left behind. Also, while cool to some, the faded bezel insert in this instance appears to be a service insert sporting a luminova pearl. I would take a pass and give this watch a wide berth.

Michael

Thanks for your input, Michael! The seller is out local AD and if I purchase the watch I will get a NOS insert. The watch is priced at about 9300 usd which is really cheap in my opinion. What do you think of that price? Anyway, I might reconsider if the damage is clearly visible...

[mdw3]

Originally Posted by The moose

Thanks for your input, Michael! The seller is out local AD and if I purchase the watch I will get a NOS insert. The watch is priced at about 9300 usd which is really cheap in my opinion. What do you think of that price? Anyway, I might reconsider if the damage is clearly visible...

Not cheap at all. The damage is clearly visible in your photos posted above. If I had this watch (and I would only buy it for wholesale to another dealer, never for sale to a collector or private buyer), I would be happy to sell it around $6,500. For $9,300 you can easily buy an undamaged example here in the USA and ship to you in SE.

Michael

[The moose]

Originally Posted by mdw3

Not cheap at all. The damage is clearly visible in your photos posted above. If I had this watch (and I would only buy it for wholesale to another dealer, never for sale to a collector or private buyer), I would be happy to sell it around $6,500. For $9,300 you can easily buy an undamaged example here in the USA and ship to you in SE.

Michael

Been looking at chrono24.com and in Europe the red 1680:s seems to start at about 9000 and upwards. However when I do a search at watchrecon.com I now see that the US prices are much cheaper.
The problem for me is that when buying from US I will get slapped with 25% tax+custom fees.
I see that Rolexes seems to be a lot cheaper in the US...

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by The moose

Thanks for your input, Michael! The seller is out local AD and if I purchase the watch I will get a NOS insert. The watch is priced at about 9300 usd which is really cheap in my opinion. What do you think of that price? Anyway, I might reconsider if the damage is clearly visible...

9,300 bucks is not cheap for a knackered dial - good that you passed anyway

[The moose]

Just looked at the watch and decided to pass. The dial was painted over the damage at 6 o'clock and had chips at other places on the dial.
Thanks for all your input. It sure was helpful!

[watchcrank]

Good recommendations!

[Frogman4me]

A missing hash mark is not uncommon and acceptable to many but peeling of the dial or big chip is whole different story.

[QueueCumber]

Cool ghost insert! Not sure from the picture quality what the dial looks like at all...

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

Cool ghost insert! Not sure from the picture quality what the dial looks like at all...

Very cool looking but I always shy away from inserts faded that much when they are thin font service inserts.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by CrownMe

Very cool looking but I always shy away from inserts faded that much when they are thin font service inserts.

I'd rather have the ghosting on a cheap insert, and keep the original as NOS as possible myself...

[The moose]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

I'd rather have the ghosting on a cheap insert, and keep the original as NOS as possible myself...

That was my plan as well but the dial was not acceptable. Didn't like that they tried to hide the damage by painting it over with black paint...

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by The moose

That was my plan as well but the dial was not acceptable. Didn't like that they tried to hide the damage by painting it over with black paint...

Yeah, that's really really bad business....

[Max72]

You did the right thing. You wouldn't have been happy in the end. Staring at the chipped dial, then trying to resell it and possibly taking a loss.
Keep searching and you'll find your watch
Good luck!