Price of a GMT-II??

[CPTL]

What's up with these things selling for $5500 and up? Just because it has a blue spring? I just think it's funny, because a year ago you could get a BNIB 16710 for $4k from a grey dealer or private seller.

Anyone else find this interesting?

[Tools]

I tell ya,

This is a phenomenon I just can't understand.. The hype over the 16710 with a 3186 movement is unreal.. This change will go down in history as a change, yes, but not nearly as significant as the change from the 3000 movement to the 3185... or many of the iterations of the 15xx movements..

I just don't see this being a factor at all in a decade or two when these watches move into the collectible category..

[Trurolexer]

Originally Posted by Tools

I tell ya,

This is a phenomenon I just can't understand.. The hype over the 16710 with a 3186 movement is unreal.. This change will go down in history as a change, yes, but not nearly as significant as the change from the 3000 movement to the 3185... or many of the iterations of the 15xx movements..

I just don't see this being a factor at all in a decade or two when these watches move into the collectible category..

I'm with Larry here!!!

[sea-dweller]

Well articulated and I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by Tools

I tell ya,

This is a phenomenon I just can't understand.. The hype over the 16710 with a 3186 movement is unreal.. This change will go down in history as a change, yes, but not nearly as significant as the change from the 3000 movement to the 3185... or many of the iterations of the 15xx movements..

I just don't see this being a factor at all in a decade or two when these watches move into the collectible category..

[AL7273]

I am in Dubai for work right now.

Found myself at the Mall of the Emirates (with the ski slope). Went by the Rolex store to see what they had in their case (nothing exciting).

The guy at the counter commented on my Pepsi Cola. I explained it was a M-Series with the 3186 movement. Raised eyebrows. He said, "these watches are in very high demand."

Personally, I am very happy I bought a new 16710/3186 Pepsi instead of a vintage model.

Now if someone could just tell us how many were made!

[Milgauss-Green]

I have just senn one in ebay Germany for 4999 euros times 1.5704 exchange at the moment equal 7850 dolartes

[Lol-x]

I'm not saying that it is a big deal, but the 3186 movement does have a little more than just the different hairspring over the 3185 movement.
If I recall correctly, there are some gears that were changed, so that the movement of the 3186 does have a further technical advancement of the 3185.

[Mrdi]

Thats correct LOL
Gear changes as well and...
The M series is the last of the GMT ll
and is a 3186 movement as well.
The increase in price can be attributed to the Rolex price increase .

[karmatp]

Man, I have been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I am looking to buy a GMT II and I can find some perfect D and Z serial GMT's with the 3185 for around $4000 and the late Z and M's with the 3186 and the stick dial for over $6000.

I am having a hard time justifying to price difference, I do like having the latest and greatest but at what price?

Is the stick dial going to be sought after in the future? If it is, it is actually harder for me to buy one because I don't buy watches for a investment, I want to wear them. If I feel like I'm wearing something that will be highly collectible, I won't wear it like it is meant to be worn, I'll baby it too much.

This is a good topic for me right now, I lay in bed at night and think......what should I do? I wake up in the morning and walk to the bathroom thinking...what do I do?

What do you guys think about this, should I be looking at a D or early Z or should I buy a late Z or M with the 3186 for a significant higher price?

[ROA]

u noted a price diff of 2K. am not sure if a few years down the road the price diff for both pieces shall still be 2K....i have a feeling the gap will be narrower. that being said, i will take the older one at a substantially lower price :)

[sys12345]

I've been in your shoes before. Visually, there's no difference between D, Z or even the M series apart from the two sticks on the dial. If u are looking at an investment point of view, i think the later Z and M with the 3186 movement is the better bet. However, if u are only interested in getting one to wear w/o too much of a concern for potential investment value, u should be fine with a pre-own D since u get to enjoy considerable savings up front. I suggest u get one at a price that u are comfortable with.

Originally Posted by karmatp

Man, I have been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I am looking to buy a GMT II and I can find some perfect D and Z serial GMT's with the 3185 for around $4000 and the late Z and M's with the 3186 and the stick dial for over $6000.

I am having a hard time justifying to price difference, I do like having the latest and greatest but at what price?

Is the stick dial going to be sought after in the future? If it is, it is actually harder for me to buy one because I don't buy watches for a investment, I want to wear them. If I feel like I'm wearing something that will be highly collectible, I won't wear it like it is meant to be worn, I'll baby it too much.

This is a good topic for me right now, I lay in bed at night and think......what should I do? I wake up in the morning and walk to the bathroom thinking...what do I do?

What do you guys think about this, should I be looking at a D or early Z or should I buy a late Z or M with the 3186 for a significant higher price?

[springer]

The retail price on a GMT II in the USA is $5650, whether it is a Z or M series. Plus tax.

Knowing how collectors are, they will definately be a collectable GMT someday, but when is anybody's guess. It's all about supply and demand, and they are in short supply and getting shorter every day.

It's like the sub 168000 vs the 16800. The 168000 was made a very short time, less than a year, which has made the watch more collectable in the eyes of the collector. Limited production equals greater demand for some, but not for all.

[Z-Sub]

Almost same accuracy and nearly identical look. I think I'll pass on the 3186 and pocket the difference for another watch in the future.

[karmatp]

Didn't mean to hijack your thread Kevin, but it's a interesting topic right now.

[Milgauss-Green]

You are wrong,the retail price is 5750.00 tax apart

[Milgauss-Green]

nOT THE STICK DIAL IS GOING TO BE SOUGHT IN THE FUTURE,IT IS SOUGHT NOWADAYS,and the stick make a big difference,more than the 3186 movement,the less exist the more is sought and the more is sought the more price all of us have to pay,thank you

[MrCowboy99]

Originally Posted by Milgauss-Green

nOT THE STICK DIAL IS GOING TO BE SOUGHT IN THE FUTURE,IT IS SOUGHT NOWADAYS,and the stick make a big difference,more than the 3186 movement less exist the more is sought and the more is sought the more price all of us have to pay,thank you

I agree, the 3186 is some difference, but the big difference is the stick dial. The old ones and the new GMT IICs are the roman numerals. It's kinda like the "reds" we see out there in the market today on the old subs. The stick dial is the key.

It is now proven you can put a 3186 in GMT II so if that is important, people will change them out on the fly, but dials are a different story. Sticks are not produced anymore it looks like and had a very short run with stick dials, thus adding to the collectability of them.

This will also be proven if the 14060M ND COSC goes ceramic in the near term (Time will tell on this one.)

Short productions cycles = fewer produced = few supply

That being said on the supply side, the demand side also has to be there and it seems people want the Cokes and Pepsi's and Rolex can't get the technology to made them creating it.

All this combined = low supply and high demand for sticks = high collectibabity = higher prices for old GMT IIs and driving the $6k price range.

IMO...

[Marrk]

It will be interesting to see what dial (stick or Roman) RSC uses as a replacement part when it is time for these watches to be serviced.

Originally Posted by Milgauss-Green

nOT THE STICK DIAL IS GOING TO BE SOUGHT IN THE FUTURE,IT IS SOUGHT NOWADAYS,and the stick make a big difference,more than the 3186 movement,the less exist the more is sought and the more is sought the more price all of us have to pay,thank you

[Milgauss-Green]

I think each sheep in its place,i have been told that Rolex put the stick to make a difference,put stick with 3186 mov. and roman with 3185 that is what I heard.they know exactly which one is which one and they replace only with original for the original

[DSJ]

For these reasons, I'll likely be shopping for a 3185 movement GMT Master if/when I ever get one. I don't see the improvements in the 3186 worth the premium.

[Milgauss-Green]

They even know the color of the insert B for pepsi and A for coke and it appear like that in the model 16710 A 16710 B

[BillA]

Hey karm

buy the one with th 3185 and save $2K.

The only people who care if it a 3186 are enthusiasts, that being said, it stands for about 1% of all rolex watches being sold, If you could do a survey, and stand outside the door of your rolex AD and ask if they have heard of this or other forums, they would say no.

I was in Florida this past weekend, had an opportunity to speak to some people wearing a rolex, not one of them heard of this or other enthusiast forums.

hey, its your hard earned money.

[Milgauss-Green]

Yes but they will learn with time and soon,they know they can use it for a time and can sell it faster and more expensive than the 3185,and if it has the sticks the better and more expensive,even the people who knows knows it is better choice the get the 16710-3185 if the had 1or 2 k more to spend in the watch,why do you thing is the waiting list for daytona in steel and Milgauss Gv,90 % of potential buyer in waiting list is to buy it and resale it,thank you

[Mrdi]

The only one it matters to is the enthusiast.
Correct
However ,...that is why you are here.
You are infected , as are we.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the price, but more with which will be the most satisfying to you personally.
If it is not correct, you'll be doing the "Flipper Act" to ascertain the correct one soon after its purchase.
If you are agonizing over it the correct one is perhaps the 3186 ll (stik)
You won't lose anything, it will still be worth the additional 2k when and if you choose to sell, maybe more?

[Milgauss-Green]

You are right.the new 16610 sub is more elegant than the old ones,5512,5513 but are less seeing and look at the price.

[East Bay Rider]

The way everyone is talking, I wonder if the (ll) stick with the 3185 might be more rare than the (ll) stick with the 3186.

[aelvin]

I just got my GMT IIc 3186 for $6825 before tax from J.E Caldwell & Co :T guess its MSRP.

[2careless]

Following are my observations on 16710 (I got a M serial stick with 3186 so I'm an interested party by default):
1. M serials all come with stick or box dials. (Marrk has just corrected me that he's seen M serial roman dials so I trust his eyesight. )
2. Roman dials are made until middle of Z serials, and late Z's have all 3 dials, some Z's have 3186 movement and it's sort of random between 3185/86.
3. It can be assumed reasonably that all M serials 16710 have 3186 movements. I've yet to see one post contrary to this (i.e. M serial and has a 3185).
4. Regarding whether one can fit a 3186 from 116710 GMT2c into the old case of 16710, a different rotor is required, see http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost....2&postcount=57.

As to whether the stick/box dials 16710 are more collectable, I think it is a "fad" thing. There are many traders jacking up the prices of these "end of the season" stock and since Rolex cannot produce a red/black or red/blue ceramic bezel, the demands on 16710 pepsi/coke will continue to be there. I expect once Rolex overcomes the production problems on the TT bezels and start producing ceramic pepsi, 16710 prices will drop back to more sustainable levels.

BTW, Sheldon's web site has a whole page dedicated to this discussion. http://www.minus4plus6.com

[Marrk]

Hey, careless, what makes you such an expert?












I have seen half a dozen 3186 Roman M-series Cokes in the last few days (new at ADs). Guess you meant just Pepsis in your Point #1, huh?

Your "observations" are very entertaining.

Originally Posted by 2careless

Following are my observations on 16710 (I got a M serial stick with 3186 so I'm an interested party by default):
1. M serials all come with stick or box dials.
2. Roman dials are made until middle of Z serials, and late Z's have all 3 dials, some Z's have 3186 movement and it's sort of random between 3185/86.
3. It can be assumed reasonably that all M serials 16710 have 3186 movements. I've yet to see one post contrary to this (i.e. M serial and has a 3185).
4. Regarding whether one can fit a 3186 from 116710 GMT2c into the old case of 16710, a different rotor is required, see http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost....2&postcount=57.

As to whether the stick/box dials 16710 are more collectable, I think it is a "fad" thing. There are many traders jacking up the prices of these "end of the season" stock and since Rolex cannot produce a red/black or red/blue ceramic bezel, the demands on 16710 pepsi/coke will continue to be there. I expect once Rolex overcomes the production problems on the TT bezels and start producing ceramic pepsi, 16710 prices will drop back to more sustainable levels.

[MrCowboy99]

IMO ..

I think it's the same force driving price that the Red dials did to Subs, hence the price. Time will tell.