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Old 17 September 2008, 04:07 AM   #1
Orchi
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Questionable listing of 16550 EXP II with Cream Dial...non rail.

Err buddies...what Orchi brings here is the classic example of the much controversial debate about the highly sought after Transitional 16550 Explorer II with Cream "Rail" or "Non-Rail" Dials...which were produced in short period of time by Rolex between 1985 to 1988 or so...

But in here...Orchi does not want to dwell into the controversial debates...

Nevertheless...amidst the controversial debates that have gone on for years since...most renown collectors have now come to some what of a common understanding...that...

1. A TRUE 16550 Exp II with Cream "Rail Dial" would have "SWISS - T<25" marking under the 6 o'clock White Gold rectangular marker...

2. ANOTHER TRUE(but believed to be in RARER numbers) 16550 Exp II with Cream "NON Rail" Dial would have "T SWISS <25 T" marking under the 6 o'clock White Gold rectangular marker...

However...Orchi stumbled onto this listing by eBay Power Seller - Watch-Navi of HongKong...for a 16550 Explorer II watch which is claimed to be...

"1987 Rolex Explorer II 16550 Cream Ivory Dial Non-Rail"


"Here is an used Rolex Oyster Perpetual Date Explorer II stainless steel men's watch, cicra. 1987, ref.no. is 16550, serial no. is R387XXX, 100% original & authentic, the watch is in overall good condition

# Dial = signed 100% original dial has changed to a nice cream / ivory colour and is in good condition, luminous marker with white gold bracket is in a nice yellowish patina, all writing is clean and visable, signed "SWISS T<25" at the bottom..."


Now if one sees the CENTRE...between the top n bottom 2 lines of COSC plots markings...one would realise that the COSC plots are "Non Rail" type...meaning without a empty channel passing thru from top to bottom between the 2 lines...

Then if one takes a closer look at the "SWISS - T<25" marking under the 6 o'clock marker...one would realize that...this Cream Non Rail Dial would have the WRONG Tritium marking on the Dial...

Also if one takes a closer look n comparison at the other plots on the Dial...one would see the inconsistency of the markings n fonts...on the Dial...

Finally when one takes a closer comparison of the quality of the hour markers which are supposed to be White Gold surround markers...one would also notice that the Tritium fillings are very much inconsistent...n downright UGLY...to begin with.

Therefore...in Orchi's frank opinion...that 16550 Explorer II watch being listed in eBay with a Buy-Now price of USD12K or so...may have a complete FAKE Dial...!



http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-Rolex-Explo...QQcmdZViewItem

For the sake of further close comparisons...Orchi shall post the following pictures of the REAL deals of "NON Rail" cream Dials...courtesy of VRF forum...n especially from buddy AAKViper...who is a renown watchmaker n very reputable collector of the Rolex vintage watches...

NOTE:

The 1st 2 pictures contain the CORRECT Real Deal on "Non Rail" n "Rail" Cream Dials...

The last picture shows another example of debatable n questionable cream "Non Rail" Dial...!
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Old 17 September 2008, 04:42 AM   #2
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Orchi, the dial in question is either all or in part refinished and possibly counterfeit. I'm leaning more toward refinished. It definately is not original as stated by the seller.
A lot of questionable items in Hong Kong. They are sure busy over there trying to stay a step ahead of everyone.
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Old 17 September 2008, 06:29 AM   #3
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Orchi, if I'm not wrong, a dial was originally cream only if the spacing between superlative chronometer and officially certified is even as seen on the watch on the left in the 2nd photo. The spacing on the watch on the right is different. This dial here was originally white and would've been turned cream by the artificial means of exposing it to the light. So, for this reason, the seller is not being honest.
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Old 17 September 2008, 12:24 PM   #4
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while I understand fully your point orchi,I personally am not qualified enough yet with this dial style to voice a confident opinion.but I will study them diligently until all becomes clear..
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Old 17 September 2008, 01:14 PM   #5
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I reported it as a possible misrepresentation.

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Old 18 September 2008, 02:50 PM   #6
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Err buddy Terry...the relevant eBay listing of the questionable watch is still valid...on Buy-Now basis.

Just one click to bid...n a couple more to make payments...uh oh!
Somebody who buys this watch...would be burnt in despairs...!

The Dial has very likely been tampered with...n it can be construed as FAKE...!
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Old 19 September 2008, 03:47 AM   #7
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It is now invalid.

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Old 22 September 2008, 03:26 AM   #8
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Err buddy Terry...hmmmm...Orchi nearly forgotten about this one...!

Thanks to eBay's swifter action with the recent renewed policies...the
BAD watch...or so called "16550 Cream" has since been axed...!
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Old 31 October 2009, 12:52 AM   #9
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Any info on the 16570 cream dial?
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Old 18 August 2010, 10:14 AM   #10
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Read this: http://bjsonline.com/watches/articles/0016.shtml
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Old 18 August 2010, 07:37 PM   #11
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Good link , thanks !
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Old 20 August 2010, 01:09 AM   #12
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Err buddies...sometimes it's good to bring up the old threads...

At this time especially...
Please let Orchi try to tell another story...

We all know...
the MOST desirable Transitional 16550 Exp II...
must have CREAM + RAIL White DIAL + WG surround markets(SWISS-T<25)...
or CREAM White Dial + WG surround markers(T SWISS < 25 T)...
a.k.a the IVORY Dial...

Example of Transitional 16550 CREAM RAIL or Non-RAIL White Dial...
courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...


[img]http://************/attachment.php?attachmentid=39496&stc=1&d=12215884 23[/img]


So then we know...
Transitional 16550 Exp II Black Dial...with WG surround markers(Wow!)
BUT it is not so desirable...n certainly NOT as valuable...

Example of 16550 Exp II with Black Dial "Rail"...with WG surround markers...
courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...



We know also...
the later successor 16570 Exp II with White Dial + Black surround markers...
is NOT as desirable...despite some of these White Dial might turn into CREAMY colour...
n NOT as valuable also...

Example of 16570 Exp II with White Dial...+ Black surround markers.
courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...



BUT IF one is desperate enough...
he could make this...
from 2 of the NOT so desirable 16550 Exp II Black Dial/16570 Exp II White Dial with Black surround markers...
by taking out the 16570 White Dial...which might turn into CREAM color...
n put aside the Black surround markers(from the 16570 White Dial)...

Then take out the WG surround markers from the 16550 Black Dial...
to put on the 16570 White Dial...
After that...just installed the messed up Dial onto the Cal.3085 movement...
n...into the 16550 CASE...!!!

The guy didn't even have to switch the movement/bezel or hands...

Voila...!!!
this CRAP...
is then passed on to unsuspecting members...
who would pay upto USD25K...during the peak time...
for A MESSED up...16550 Exp II...
with a MODIFIED n imitated...16570 Exp II with CREAM Dial...


[img]http://************/attachment.php?attachmentid=39497&stc=1&d=12215885 81[/img]
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Old 24 August 2010, 06:22 AM   #13
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[QUOTE=Orchi;2006005]Err buddies...sometimes it's good to bring up the old threads...

At this time especially...
Please let Orchi try to tell another story...

We all know...
the MOST desirable Transitional 16550 Exp II...
must have CREAM + RAIL White DIAL + WG surround markets(SWISS-T<25)...
or CREAM White Dial + WG surround markers(T SWISS < 25 T)...
a.k.a the IVORY Dial...

Example of Transitional 16550 CREAM RAIL or Non-RAIL White Dial...
courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...


[img]http://************/attachment.php?attachmentid=39496&stc=1&d=12215884 23[/img]

QUOTE]

Hi Ochi,

are "CREAM + RAIL White DIAL + WG surround markets(SWISS-T<25)...
or CREAM White Dial + WG surround markers(T SWISS < 25 T)..."
both are same value and same collectible in price?
Thanks. Jason
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Old 20 August 2010, 01:55 PM   #14
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wow.. orchi.. you have great eyes.... i'm just a newbie and can't really see anything wrong until you pointed out the reasons....
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Old 20 August 2010, 02:14 PM   #15
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Thanks for the pointers, Orchi.
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Old 20 August 2010, 02:23 PM   #16
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Very good info buddy Orchi!

Thanks for posting.
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Old 20 August 2010, 08:37 PM   #17
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For sale in Japan from reputable dealer just over $10K:

Name:  creamEXII.jpg
Views: 1243
Size:  120.1 KB

Ref.16550 Serial97xxxxx、Cal.3085
38mm Endlink501 Bracelet78360
Official Rolex Japan Service March 2006

I can't tell if it is original or not.....maybe not according to Orchi.
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Old 23 August 2010, 04:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lol-x View Post
For sale in Japan from reputable dealer just over $10K:

Attachment 155762

Ref.16550 Serial97xxxxx、Cal.3085
38mm Endlink501 Bracelet78360
Official Rolex Japan Service March 2006

I can't tell if it is original or not.....maybe not according to Orchi.
Black surrounds should be 16570....
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Old 20 August 2010, 09:10 PM   #19
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Again .. the black surround markers will not be of Orchi's liking . !
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Old 21 August 2010, 08:19 PM   #20
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My friend has a Explorer black spider-web (cracked) "Rail" dial watch in excellent condition with serial starts "9" which dated 1986-1987, no box, no papers. Is it worth collecting and how much do you think is worth?

Thanks for the help.
Jason
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Old 24 August 2010, 12:20 AM   #21
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All I can say is that watchnavi has had a few questionable pieces over the years. BUYER BEWARE!
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Old 24 August 2010, 12:08 PM   #22
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Is this true: the common story used to be that the cream dials have to be rail dials (Rail dial means the Superlative…Chronometer & Officiall…Certified text is is centred or alligned)
But nowadays it also accepted that cream dials can be Non rail… (marked with “SWISS – T<25" or “T SWISS <25 T” )

The last cream dial is probably the e-serie with black plots… (with rail dial)"

http://www.chronoarchive.com/watch/v...550_Cream_dial

Now I am confused!!!???
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Old 24 August 2010, 01:39 PM   #23
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Lokk at this black surranding cream/ivory watch!

http://www.watchtalkforums.info/foru...orum/35915.htm


NOW THE MORE I SEARCH, THE MORE I AM CONFUSED! WHAT IS THE REAL CREAM/IVORY EXPLORER!!!???
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Old 24 August 2010, 02:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefive15 View Post
Lokk at this black surranding cream/ivory watch!

http://www.watchtalkforums.info/foru...orum/35915.htm


NOW THE MORE I SEARCH, THE MORE I AM CONFUSED! WHAT IS THE REAL CREAM/IVORY EXPLORER!!!???

I was confused too... but I now know there are multiple correct cream dials variations.

The most collectible being the cream dial 16550 'rail dial' even though the 16550 'non rail' dial is less common.
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Old 24 August 2010, 04:09 PM   #25
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Hi Jason...

16550 are one of my pet projects.. yours is fine ... a lot of people would only buy the rail dial, but yours with the t swiss < 25t is fine also with a little less demand and price , and even those who would only buy the rail would admitt it is OK... you seem to have paid a fair price for a non rail so all is good. would look better with a 165550 style insert though rather than 16570 style.



past that i stick to my opinion that there was one SMALL batch of cream dials with black plots around e series.and none with swiss < 25t.. but that that someone has found a good way of messing with the coloring on non cream dials for both swiss < 25t wg version and later black plot watches ... we have seen evidence that the plots can be removed and refitted and with this being possible and how many of these started to appear ( mostly out of japan) that is why people will stick to rail dials as they KNOW they are legitimate.
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Old 1 October 2010, 01:09 PM   #26
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Please help

Here are the facts: I bought a new R16570A from a AD in 1992. The watch requested was a white dial and when it arrived it was in Black. The AD replaced the dial with a white one and it was noted on the bill of sale. From what I know the dial is a "rail" type with a even space between both lines and has black marker boarders and "swiss -T<25". The dial has since turned a ivory / cream color. What exactly do I have?

Thanks for your help.
MWC
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Old 24 November 2016, 02:26 AM   #27
jz3
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Hi guys, I happened to come across this thread while hunting for a 16550. Was this the same watch that Watch-Navi was trying to sell in 2008?

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/1985-Role...4AAOSwLnBX2-ls

Cheers
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