Wild Caseback

[ilikebond]

I've made an offer on a stunning red sub, but there is one quirk - the inside of the case back appears to have been damaged somehow. I can't tell if this is extensive pitting, or (maybe more likely), some kind of grinding something touched it. The sub is otherwise pretty immaculate. Just wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this? I assume it's not a major cause for concern or issue to avoid, since it is not a visible defect, but welcome your thoughts.

BTW, seller stated he was not sure what happened with the caseback, but it's good with the 1680 reference, and dated - he cannot see the exact year but can read II.6?. This is a 2.2m Mark II, meters first sub.

The sub comes on a 7206 riveted bracelet with 82 end links and a 4/69 clasp. I believe the seller is reputable and trust that everything is legit, but thought I'd also ask opinions/verifications on the bracelet, end links, and clasp as well.

Thanks!

[omitohud]

Well there is no proof this case back is original to this watch then. It would be difficult n expensive to find loose II69 case back in the wild. Depends on how ocd u r and the final price.


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[J!m]

The back of the mid-case looks REALLY sharp... Dare I say TOO sharp...

I'd like to see more pictures of the rest of the case, with and without the movement if at all possible.

If you trust the seller, it might be a really nice, basically unworn watch. But, no matter how nice, there is always bracelet wear and it happens pretty quickly.

So, I'm being overly cautious. It may just be the particular photo but I'm concerned clearly.

[ilikebond]

Thank you. Attached are some additional photos of the watch. It does look only very lightly or perhaps not polished. Is the case too good? I do trust the seller, but I nevertheless value your opinions and thoughts.















And here are some good shots of the lugs.

[Paul]

I ask cos, if all else is in order ... and the price allows for the flawed case-back, it might be a nice watch but it will never appeal to hard-core collectors.

I can't imagine why but it almost looks like someone has bounced an engraving tool around the inner case-back, perhaps to obliterate watchmaker inscriptions ?

Anyway, that will always be a "Please Explain" aspect of the watch and will always take away value. I've owned similarly flawed watches before , fun to own but they can be very difficult to sell.

[ilikebond]

Originally Posted by Paul

I ask cos, if all else is in order ... and the price allows for the flawed case-back, it might be a nice watch but it will never appeal to hard-core collectors.

I can't imagine why but it almost looks like someone has bounced an engraving tool around the inner case-back, perhaps to obliterate watchmaker inscriptions ?

Anyway, that will always be a "Please Explain" aspect of the watch and will always take away value. I've owned similarly flawed watches before , fun to own but they can be very difficult to sell.

Would most likely be a keeper, yes.

That's an interesting comment. I would think because, once the back is screwed on, you'd never see or think about it again, that it wouldn't be such a big deal, so long as one can tell it is legit Rolex and a proper 1680 caseback from the right time period, which it appears to be.

Thank you for that advice.

[alwayshere]

thats not pitting. That looks like someone used an engraving pen to remove some marks on the case back. Probably removing service marks - though baffles me why they would do that and agreed that the case looks very new from the back.

Be careful

[Chunky]

Call it a gut feeling, but I'd really do my due diligence with this one. My opinion. Good luck

[ilikebond]

Hm. Your responses are disturbing me, as I've already made an offer on the watch (have not received a response, so obviously no payment yet).

Is there anything specific anyone can point to that looks off, other than the case looking "too good"? I mean, the dial looks legit right down to slight marbling in some of the plots (e.g. 4) and hour hand, to slight chips on a few markers. Is it not possible that the watch is authentic and well taken care of?

BTW, I also have photos of the open 6 and 9 on the date wheel.

[VastHorizon]

Always evaluate a vintage watch in its entirety. That midcase is suspect and the dial shot looks a lot of the components don't jive, patinawise.
Funny how the pitting on the caseback managed to miss majority of the pertinent Rolex text engravings.
Be extra careful.

[ilikebond]

Originally Posted by VastHorizon

Always evaluate a vintage watch in its entirety. That midcase is suspect and the dial shot looks a lot of the components don't jive, patinawise.

Thank you. But could you be more specific? I don't see where patina looks mismatched or something, but maybe if you point it out to me I will...

Funny how the pitting on the caseback managed to miss majority of the pertinent Rolex text engravings.
Be extra careful.

That is a really good point...

I should say this is a seller with locations in Paris and London, is a member of the Watch Trader Association and International Watch & Jewelry Guild, and is a trusted seller on Chrono24. The seller also has a few 4-digit Daytonas and some other pretty high Rolexes and Pateks for sale. They guarantee the authenticity of all watches, and offer an 85% price buy-back within the first year for any reason (basically for trade-in purposes).

It just does not "smell" like fraud or insincerity to me. That does not mean someone isn't mistaken, but they are claiming to be expert and guaranteeing authenticity...

Would still love to hear more opinions, especially with specific details. One note: the case markings (model and serial) look legit to me, and the photos are pretty close up and details, so I feel like that'd be something that'd probably look off if it were.

Thanks!

[nello]

Not an expert.
Chamfers on the lugs look really shallow to me.
The back of the case looks very sharp, as someone else said.
The corners of the crown guards(backside) look off to me.

[J!m]

Let me comment again after the added photos.

I am happy to see bracelet wear between the lugs as well as traces of crevice corrosion where the case back goes on. There should be CORRESPONDING crevice corrosion evidence on the back, where they were aligned while corroding.

The mid Case looks more convincing now. Lug sides have been polished but it is not terrible at all.

Dial and hands look pretty good to me. Lume color match is close. Very close. That’s good.
Tell tale for me on a “fake” dial is not there. I believe it is a genuine dial.

If the price is correct then it’s a good buy. That case back will cause heartburn when it is sold again but if the corrosion is aligned it’s original in my book.

Crystal is clearly aftermarket. Bezel ring is also quite polished but that isn’t a deal breaker. Just pointing it out.

[omitohud]

Here are my observations, take it with a grain of salt.

I’m speculating this watch had a hard life. First of all, the lume on both the markers and hands are quite lite for a 50 yr old watch. So that means it’s been exposed to sunlight most of its life on someone wrist. The mid case has been polished rather poorly. Maybe it had many scratches and dents. The same can probably be said to the case back, hence someone tried to replace it with another from a different period. (I would probably say it’s almost impossible to find a late 60’s case back). The bezel is almost brand new, too minty for a 50 yr old watch. The bezel is usually the first to soften from use. The insert is from early 80’s, so it’s been replaced.

Personally I feel when u r collecting such an iconic watch, u would want everything to be original. That’s the reason why u r lusting after that tiny little red text on the dial, no? This watch is not perfect. If it’s mine I would send the mid case for refinishing. Find the proper insert, either long 5 or kissing 40. Hoping my lucky star is shining to let me find a 68 or 69 case back. If you are a patient guy, then maybe u will enjoy doing all of these.

That said, it’s still a meter first red sub. Parts alone are worth ten of thousands. If the price is really good then go ahead. Otherwise, I feel you might get buyer remorse.


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[ilikebond]

Thank you for those comments, J!m and omitohud. I feel like I'm being pulled in both directions a little bit now. It's maybe got some problems, but seems overall genuine, correct? But maybe not original is case back, bezel, bezel insert, crown (triplock), and crystal?

Assume I don't mind the case back issue so much. I really love the dial. I like the contrast of the almost stark white markers with the bright red "submariner." My offer was approximately $26.5k. Good buy or too much?

Another one I'm considering is at craft & tailored, here - https://www.craftandtailored.com/col...1680-mk-v-dial

It's pretty similar, but there is more marbling in the markers, and a little oil staining on the hands, and it's a Mark IV. Claims to be unpolished. Do you all feel this is a better buy at about $22k?

I can always keep looking, of course. I actually do have one more on my short list, which is very different (Mark IV, yellow patina, blueing insert), also claims to be unpolished. Here's a quick pic.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

thats not pitting. That looks like someone used an engraving pen to remove some marks on the case back. Probably removing service marks - though baffles me why they would do that and agreed that the case looks very new from the back.

Be careful

Not for nothing, but a 2.29x,xxx serial 1680 should be REGISTERED DESIGN, Not Orig Reg Design, eh?

As for the caseback? Engravers Gone Wild.

[omitohud]

Originally Posted by linesiders

Not for nothing, but a 2.29x,xxx serial 1680 should be REGISTERED DESIGN, Not Orig Reg Design, eh?



As for the caseback? Engravers Gone Wild.

Good catch. It didn’t register with my mind. The case is way much later then. It should be just registered design. In this case, I would avoid this watch like a plague.


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[linesiders]

Originally Posted by omitohud

Good catch. It didn’t register with my mind. The case is way much later then. It should be just registered design. In this case, I would avoid this watch like a plague.


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I stopped at the ORG - CGs look a little off - did not do a deep dive.

Hard Pass

[05carbondrz]

I personally would prefer the Craft&Tailored Red Sub.

[soundserious]

Oh, fake. Case is aftermarket.

[omitohud]

Originally Posted by soundserious

Oh, fake. Case is aftermarket.

I thought about that. The CG r too rounded, so I thought it was over polished. But the etchings look good though.

Service case starts with 4 mil


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[J!m]

Yep! Right in my face and I missed it. “Can’t see the Forrest through the trees!”

Possibly a service replacement case. I don’t think that insert is 80’s vintage, maybe late 70’s (looks a lot like my ‘78 9411 insert) so perhaps it got a second lease on life at that point.

Probably not worth more than 15k as parts I’m guessing. I wouldn’t pay more than that (Assuming I had that). Most of it in the dial and hands.

So maybe that is the original case back but the rest of the case is newer... interesting piece.

[gt0279a]

Looks like the date bubble may be polished down since it has poor mag vs aftermarket.

Those modern style thin chamfers are either recut or perhaps replacement cases did not have the nice thick ones.

[twnturbo]

Good eye guys ,myself i like the 3rd one with the nicer patina ,i'm not a fan of the stark white look (just doesn't look vintage) & the 3rd one has a nice fat almost kissing 40

[ilikebond]

Thanks a lot guys. I actually was researching this myself, "Registered Design" versus "Orig Rolex Design" to see if that was right, but I hadn't found an answer yet.

Whew. Thanks for saving me the headache. With that case issue, that tips the scale for me to a hard no. Too bad, love this dial.

[greekbum]

Fake case and caseback to start. Very similar caseback s were sold on eBay by a known faker 2-3 years ago his practice ones I had assumed.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Fake case and caseback to start. Very similar caseback s were sold on eBay by a known faker 2-3 years ago his practice ones I had assumed.

The guy from Italy?

I got suckered in on one four years back, got a refund and reported but he is still there.