.:Don't hate the player, Hate the game:. - AD/GREY

[Ballzzz]

"Don't hate the player, Hate the game"

This anti grey movement around here recently has me scratching my head. When the grey's were consistently below MSRP you all loved them. Now supply/demand has shifted and you hate them.

In my humble opinion the greys are not the problem. Here's why!

ALL ROLEX WATCHES GO FROM PRODUCTION FACILITY TO AD'S!

I place the bulk of the blame on Rolex not controlling there dealer network. Not using any popular grey names here but lets just say joesgwatches.com ALWAYS has the hottest newest models, as do all other greys.

Why might you ask? Because they have relationships with AD's and the AD's make 5/10 watch sales with one call probably over MSRP and old stock gone. That's the issue, but its a double edged sword.

The market is good now and AD's can't get enough watches to sell BUT when that's not the case if they sever relationships with Grey's they will be crying to Rolex that they can't meet quotas.

Greys serve a purpose and now its frowned upon but at some point it will be welcomed, as is life. Don't hate the Greys they provide a service and make a profit, god bless America!

I have always took the simple approach to not purchase over MSRP and figure out getting a watch on my own terms. Some don't mind paying the premium and getting what they want when they want it, kudos to the Grey for providing that service. It's very easy as a consumer to vote with your wallet.

Am I somewhat frustrated I can't go buy a batman today for instant gratification, I guess. But as the phys majors will tell you if that's the case the batman would be more like robin!

I am not defending the Grey's I am defending capitalism, and anyone who has the guts to be in business!

[HERITAGE82]

Amen

[Investr]

Hmmm, interesting read.....

[Zakalwe]

I think you’ve set up a bit of a straw man. I’m not sure that many people on here have sharpened their pitchforks for grey dealers (sure some have but it’s the internet, you can find at least one person with any opinion you can think of if you look hard enough, no matter how barmy).

I think most of the opprobrium is reserved for scalpers - people who buy watches with no intention of keeping them but purely want to make a fast buck. Legal, yes. Understandable, to a degree. Annoying for watch enthusiasts to witness, absofrigginglutely.

Incidentally, I’m not sure capitalism needs defending. It’s fetishised to seemingly quasi-religious proportions in this place.

[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I think you’ve set up a bit of a straw man. I’m not sure that many people on here have sharpened their pitchforks for grey dealers (sure some have but it’s the internet, you can find at least one person with any opinion you can think of if you look hard enough, no matter how barmy).

I think most of the opprobrium is reserved for scalpers - people who buy watches with no intention of keeping them but purely want to make a fast buck. Legal, yes. Understandable, to a degree. Annoying for watch enthusiasts to witness, absofrigginglutely.

Incidentally, I’m not sure capitalism needs defending. It’s fetishised to seemingly quasi-religious proportions in this place.

You touched on a great point, everyone here who genuinely loves mechanical watches for what they are HATES the crumbs who act as if they are one of us to purely buy and flip. To be honest they are no different from the Grey's other than there deceiving nature. The supply/demand control is unchanged. I spot this often and just laugh, but again can't hate someone who try's to make a buck.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by Ballzzz

You touched on a great point, everyone here who genuinely loves mechanical watches for what they are HATES the crumbs who act as if they are one of us to purely buy and flip. To be honest they are no different from the Grey's other than there deceiving nature. The supply/demand control is unchanged. I spot this often and just laugh, but again can't hate someone who try's to make a buck.

The thing is the grey is making a living, like we all have to. No harm no foul.

In order to be a scalper, you need to be able to source a scarce watch at retail and in order to do that in the current climate you already have to have an AD relationship. All that means you probably don’t need the money. Sure, that doesn’t usually stop people trying to make a quick buck, but it’s partly what makes it so annoying. I wouldn’t be bothered if the people making money were poor and on the dole.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I think you’ve set up a bit of a straw man. I’m not sure that many people on here have sharpened their pitchforks for grey dealers (sure some have but it’s the internet, you can find at least one person with any opinion you can think of if you look hard enough, no matter how barmy).

I think most of the opprobrium is reserved for scalpers - people who buy watches with no intention of keeping them but purely want to make a fast buck. Legal, yes. Understandable, to a degree. Annoying for watch enthusiasts to witness, absofrigginglutely.

Incidentally, I’m not sure capitalism needs defending. It’s fetishised to seemingly quasi-religious proportions in this place.

Yup it's flippers that have really ruined the chances for genuines to buy easily or at all from ADs, and then you have to blame the global economy for creating an initial surge of genuine demand that pushed prices up and attracted the flippers, and then you have to blame Social Media for accelerating the hype, and then you have to blame...

Just easier to put the blame on Mame, boys.

Go sip a cocktail, have a swim, relax and dream of Gilda...

[jvd99]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I think you’ve set up a bit of a straw man. I’m not sure that many people on here have sharpened their pitchforks for grey dealers (sure some have but it’s the internet, you can find at least one person with any opinion you can think of if you look hard enough, no matter how barmy).

I think most of the opprobrium is reserved for scalpers - people who buy watches with no intention of keeping them but purely want to make a fast buck. Legal, yes. Understandable, to a degree. Annoying for watch enthusiasts to witness, absofrigginglutely.

Incidentally, I’m not sure capitalism needs defending. It’s fetishised to seemingly quasi-religious proportions in this place.

Unfortunately, flippers are in every hot market, the actual product being flipped is irrelevant. For example, in the US, a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle 23 retails for about $275 but the second it's sold and put up for sale online, the asking price is usually around $2000 and there are no shortage of buyers. That's a serious markup, but people are buying. I guess you could call it an annoying byproduct of capitalism and others would say secondary markets behave in an unfettered manner as capitalism intended.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by jvd99

Unfortunately, flippers are in every hot market, the actual product being flipped is irrelevant. For example, in the US, a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle 23 retails for about $275 but the second it's sold and put up for sale online, the asking price is usually around $2000 and there are no shortage of buyers. That's a serious markup, but people are buying. I guess you could call it an annoying byproduct of capitalism and others would say secondary markets behave in an unfettered manner as capitalism intended.

Thanks for that, I had to Google it to know what on Earth you were talking about and I learned something new today.

I had assumed from the name and the mark-up that it was some sort of, ahem, gentleman’s “tonic”.

[jvd99]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Thanks for that, I had to Google it to know what on Earth you were talking about and I learned something new today.

I had assumed from the name and the mark-up that it was some sort of, ahem, gentleman’s “tonic”.

That's funny - but these US limited edition bourbons end up in European and UK auction houses regularly because our laws generally do not permit such transactions

[ap1]

Originally Posted by jvd99

Unfortunately, flippers are in every hot market, the actual product being flipped is irrelevant. For example, in the US, a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle 23 retails for about $275 but the second it's sold and put up for sale online, the asking price is usually around $2000 and there are no shortage of buyers. That's a serious markup, but people are buying. I guess you could call it an annoying byproduct of capitalism and others would say secondary markets behave in an unfettered manner as capitalism intended.

Having had Pappys I can say for certain it is not 40x better than angels envy

[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by ap1

Having had Pappys I can say for certain it is not 40x better than angels envy

I don't think its 5 times better than Blantons IMHO & thats at retail!

[pandrew]

Originally Posted by ap1

Having had Pappys I can say for certain it is not 40x better than angels envy

I agree 100%

[ap1]

Originally Posted by pandrew

I agree 100%

🤙🏻 for the pics or didn’t happen crew. I have a very generous friend who basically saves it for my visits!




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[_speedmaster_]

This isn't rocket science. The onus is clearly on Rolex for this current state of affairs, causing a necessary symbiotic relationship between ADs and greys.

It's Rolex who impose strict sales quotas for ADs to match. It's Rolex who still make an abundance of undesirable watches (by Rolex standards) which sit in AD cases for months on end.

ADs turn to greys to meet these quotas and unload the undesirables. In return, the greys get a steady supply of desirable models from the ADs.

Although I can't say im thrilled about these giant waitlists and 200% markups, the greys allow ADs to survive. Without the greys, your local AD might go the way of Radio Shack.

[jaySL350]

It is what is,,,,
i bare no malice to grays or ads,,,,,
yes its very frustating presently but it will pass,,,,,

[Finslayer83]

Everyone loves capitalism until its time to do capitalist things..

[SoCal_Batman]

Originally Posted by Finslayer83

Everyone loves capitalism until its time to do capitalist things..

+1 This.

[ALF61]

Originally Posted by Finslayer83

Everyone loves capitalism until its time to do capitalist things..

I don´t fully agree with this comment. You could compare hot Rolex watches to a hot commodity trading on the exchange.

Except for a very important thing. On a free market be it a house market or a hot commodity, the playing field is leveled for everyone. You have regulations by the SEC or CFTC that protect participants so there are no abuses.

Because of limited supply by the sole provider in this case Rolex, and the supply being passed on to select clients by the AD´s, the playing field IS NOT LEVELED for everyone. Further, when I see all these images of the new SS BLRO with full stickers and the supposedly tight restrictions by AD´s removing them, witholding warranty card etc., and you see these gray dealers showcasing in the internet without these restrictions, you start thinking that some AD´s are not playing by the rules and possibly are part of the same gray dealer in a parallel form.

Is there dirty play in here ? to me there is at least a gray area.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by ALF61

I don´t fully agree with this comment. You could compare hot Rolex watches to a hot commodity trading on the exchange.

Except for a very important thing. On a free market be it a house market or a hot commodity, the playing field is leveled for everyone. You have regulations by the SEC or CFTC that protect participants so there are no abuses.

Because of limited supply by the sole provider in this case Rolex, and the supply being passed on to select clients by the AD´s, the playing field IS NOT LEVELED for everyone.

A lot of people on this forum subscribe to laissez faire, live and breathe pure capitalism. What they don't understand is that creating a level/somewhat regulated market is ultimately healthy for all involved.

[RHJ]

Originally Posted by Finslayer83

Everyone loves capitalism until its time to do capitalist things..

... or to suffer from

[Baco Noir]

They’ve helped me get better prices on AP and Breitling than I could have on my own, so I’m thankful for sure.

[037]

Originally Posted by Ballzzz

Am I somewhat frustrated I can't go buy a batman today for instant gratification, I guess.

Sure you can. You just can't buy it from a heavily populated area where there are hundreds of other people who want the same watch.

Perhaps the problem with the game is instant gratification, an overwhelming desire to post on social media and the like. Everything has to be now. Society has lost all ability to be patient.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by 037

Sure you can. You just can't buy it from a heavily populated area where there are hundreds of other people who want the same watch.

Perhaps the problem with the game is instant gratification, an overwhelming desire to post on social media and the like. Everything has to be now. Society has lost all ability to be patient.

Patience is for those who can't find a way to get what they want NOW!

[037]

Originally Posted by HERITAGE82

Patience is for those who can't find a way to get what they want NOW!

So true.

[joli160]

Good read, haters gonna hate.
Personal preference where one buys. Personally I'd never buy from an AD, especially nowadays. To many rules to abide with and I prefer simple straight forward deals.
Others like the atmosphere of AD's. AD's and grey coexisted for many years each in need of the other.

Current market problems are probably caused by flippers looking for a quick buck. These are the culprits

[mmmmp]

Good read! However, I also haven't seen an abnormal number of negative posts attacking or hating the grey dealers. Mmuaybe I'm not seeing those posts or missing those threads.

I certainly can empathize wanting a certain reference and being turned away over and over. In fact, it would drive me nuts after a while. But, wasting energy getting upset won't change much. Wish I could help *all* the folks on waiting lists but I can't. It's just one of life's disappointments we're all suffering through.

Hang in there and that Batman will come along. You'll appreciate more.

Mark

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

[Chewbacca]

Op has a point, and clearly wants a deal on their next watch.

Imop, people are upset because the indy merchant now controls the game for the market class.

there’s a feeling they’re owed a preferential something or another for supporting those who now have more influence than the money required for entry and participation.

Ive seen this with cars and people who’ve opened their own businesses after quitting their bosses.

Effectively, the greys are competing with the buyers own dollar, and that can only be remedied with 4 Rolex contests going forward.

Find your wallets TS’ !!!!! And people will play ball.

[yxc145]

I don't hate grey dealers. I refuse to pay over MSRP. So it is not a problem for me.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by yxc145

I don't hate grey dealers. I refuse to pay over MSRP. So it is not a problem for me.

Exactly

It’s frustrating not to be able to find the references at your AD at MRSP but that’s life for the time being.