2018...and RSC have just fitted a new Flat Four insert to an LV for me.

[Haywood_Milton]

Morning all,

In July 2018 I sent a 16610 LV with F61xxxx case number to Rolex UK for service, glass, bezel insert and crown.

This is how it has come back.



It's a "full set" example with Mark 1 dial - note the wide form of "SWISS MADE" text.





This is, without question, a Flat Four insert....but is it a new variant? Notice how the short end of the horizontal stroke "kicks up" slightly.

Is it a new service part, or is it some curious, older part at the bottom of the storage bin which has luckily been drawn off for my watch?

If it IS a service part, will they fit it only to those LVs which should have had a Flat Four insert? I cannot believe so, as this would show a level of nuanced interest in vintage / collector taste which is not normal Rolex practice. Their policy has historically been to fit the last version of a part available for a model, such as a Submariner dial with white gold surround indices replacing the dial of a 1960s 5513.

If this becomes the standard service part fitted to all 16610LVs, what effect will it have on values? One might expect the Flat Four market to be undermined, as there would suddenly be a lot more available. There would be a distinction between early Flat Four inserts and later, but subtlety like that will undermine the premium that a Flat Four currently enjoys.

Valuing a later 16610 LV such as a 2006 / Z case number example that has such an insert might be easier, as it will conspicuously not be contemporary, but appraising a full set Y- or F- case number 16610 LV with one of these inserts will be more testing.

Should it be directly equivalent to one with its original Flat Four insert? If this were a contemporary insert that had somehow been dug up by Rolex, maybe -- but if it is a 2018 service part, perhaps not.

How should one describe such a watch? I would suggest "with full disclosure," but there will be those who describe such a watch as nothing other than an "F-series LV with Flat Four insert" knowing that they cannot be faulted....and they will probably price it as if no different. I suspect that one or two of these inserts are already in circulation and have been presented without comment, implicitly as if circa 2004 parts.

There is no right answer, but if this a hitherto unknown part and for as long as it has not been seen in any volume I would suggest that a correct period LV that bears one of these inserts, sold with proper disclosure, will attract a significant premium over the same watch with a pointed four.

We've all seen how desperate demand is for this type of watch in recent times. With that clamour comes less discriminating buying, fuelled by buyers and dealers alike.

If this is indeed a new, standard service part then the premium for watches fitted with it will diminish in direct relation to recognition and volume.

Knowledge, as always, will help one buy well!

Haywood

[rambo99]

looks like a new one, good work from Rolex!

[bobabreath]

The flat 4 bezel is more rare whether it serial correct to the watch or not. So Rolex just did you a favor and increased the value of your watch if you ever decide to sell. I would just wear and enjoy as is.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by bobabreath

The flat 4 bezel is more rare whether it serial correct to the watch or not. So Rolex just did you a favor and increased the value of your watch if you ever decide to sell. I would just wear and enjoy as is.

It's only in internet fantasy island that the so called flat four font is so called rare, its been used many times over the past decades on subs and SD.

[ytsethunder]

Originally Posted by padi56

It's only in internet fantasy island that the so called flat four font is so called rare, its been used many times over the past decades on subs and SD.

I don’t get the fascination with the different bezel/dial configs. This is what I always think back to: lots of other models have had the flat four and as far as I understand nobody really cares?

The only thing I can understand is wanting a 2003 version, or one with an engraved rehaut. Anything in between is just another LV. Different strokes for different folks though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by padi56

It's only in internet fantasy island that the so called flat four font is so called rare, its been used many times over the past decades on subs and SD.

Flat Fours have been used extensively on different inserts, but surely the focus of this thread is specifically upon the Flat Four variants of the green bezel inserts fitted to 16610 LVs? These do appear to have been produced - until now at least - for only a short period and fitted to a relatively small production run of early watches.

Haywood

[fastfreddie]

Are you having a laugh. Sad does not begin to sketch it.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by fastfreddie

Are you having a laugh. Sad does not begin to sketch it.

That post, on a specialist Rolex watch forum, could equally be directed at its author.

H

[Enoch]

Originally Posted by fastfreddie

Are you having a laugh. Sad does not begin to sketch it.

Just to clarify. Although Haywood won’t blow his own trumpet, I’ll do it for him.

He is one of the UK’s leading experts on most things Rolex. You may think his contribution is sad, but his level of knowledge is regularly used by the police and dealers around the country to ID stolen, franken, and bitsa watches that regularly appear on the market to trick the unwary.

I’d go as far to say that he has probably saved hundreds of people from being duped. His knowledge and help to forum members is given freely.

He’s also a very nice chap.

[RRGHOST1]

Originally Posted by Enoch

Just to clarify. Although Haywood won’t blow his own trumpet, I’ll do it for him.

He is one of the UK’s leading experts on most things Rolex. You may think his contribution is sad, but his level of knowledge is regularly used by the police and dealers around the country to ID stolen, franken, and bitsa watches that regularly appear on the market to trick the unwary.

I’d go as far to say that he has probably saved hundreds of people from being duped. His knowledge and help to forum members is given freely.

He’s also a very nice chap.

I second everything you say about him. I have bought three Rolex off him in the past and was invited to view his watch collection which is stunning. I know quite a few people on this forum have called him fit to burn for some bizarre reason. I have steered a few people in Haywoods direction because he has had a Rolex they particularly wanted. Nice bloke, nice staff, nice shops !

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by fastfreddie

Are you having a laugh. Sad does not begin to sketch it.

Five infraction points

[Enoch]

If you want to swap the insert for a proper one Haywood. You know where I am

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by padi56

It's only in internet fantasy island that the so called flat four font is so called rare, its been used many times over the past decades on subs and SD.

Yes, but the flat 4 on this particular model (the early ones) make it worth a TON more $$$ to those who own it and decide to sell. People who bought them at the time of release and stuck them in a safe unworn are fetching upwards of $25,000 USD. Serious appreciation for a 5K watch.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by padi56

It's only in internet fantasy island that the so called flat four font is so called rare, its been used many times over the past decades on subs and SD.

So what percentage of 16610LV watches were produced with the so called flat four font? What percentage classifies them to rare on fantasy Island vs rare in reality?

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by bobabreath

The flat 4 bezel is more rare whether it serial correct to the watch or not. So Rolex just did you a favor and increased the value of your watch if you ever decide to sell. I would just wear and enjoy as is.

Sorry but the flat 4 font isn’t rare. Was used on the submariner and seadweller for ages. Have a co worker with a ‘D’ serial 16610 LV that returned from a RSC service with a flat 4 insert.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Sorry but the flat 4 font isn’t rare. Was used on the submariner and seadweller for ages. Have a co worker with a ‘D’ serial 16610 LV that returned from a RSC service with a flat 4 insert.

The relevant question is whether a green bezel insert for the Submariner 16610 LV with a Flat Four is rare. Do you have a conclusion on that specific question, and if so on what do you base it?

Wider use of Flat Fours on other bezels is irrelevant.

H

[MonBK]

Also notice how the "pearl" sits one hundred of a mm. closer to the top.

[SLS]

Interesting that this was done at service knowing the angst this insert has caused. Nice pick up!

Originally Posted by MonBK

Also notice how the "pearl" sits one hundred of a mm. closer to the top.

[brandrea]

They did a great looking service regardless

[MonBK]

x2 ^

[SC11]

x2^ or should that be x3

[Chunky]

Is it me or does the bezel just not seem to be in alignment, even if you were to move it a notch? Maybe my eyes are failing me?

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Chunky

Is it me or does the bezel just not seem to be in alignment, even if you were to move it a notch? Maybe my eyes are failing me?

Its apparent misalignment is the sole responsibility of your correspondent's failure to compose the subject matter with sufficient care. The bezel lines up within usual tolerances when turned to the correct position!

[Camel]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Its apparent misalignment is the sole responsibility of your correspondent's failure to compose the subject matter with sufficient care. The bezel lines up within usual tolerances when turned to the correct position!

[037]

If Rolex does indeed start installing this on all 16610LVs, they'll be flooded with service work on this watch. Value will certainly go down for the flat-four insert but enjoyment of the actual watch will hopefully go up!

Interesting discovery, Haywood. Hilarious that it happened to you of all people.

[harvey]

Given the negative posts, it makes me wonder why anyone would continue to post up a thread for it to be derided?

Haywood has posted an interesting thread for discussion. One I certainly can learn from, so thank you from me.

[Scapegoat]

Nice watch! But the whole business about the flat 4 is getting a little old...

[fastfreddie]

You were obviously not having a laugh, it seems to make it even worse. Mind you I never collected no.plates or stamps.

[rushca01]

Rolex trolling the collector market, brilliant!

Sellers are like here's a 16610LV with rare/unicorn flat 4 bezel for a low price of 25,000. Rolex is like hold my beer while we flood the market with flat 4 bezels.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by rushca01

Rolex trolling the collector market, brilliant!

Sellers are like here's a 16610LV with rare/unicorn flat 4 bezel for a low price of 25,000. Rolex is like hold my beer while we flood the market with flat 4 bezels.

At which point I have surely asked the forum to hold my jacket, rolled up my sleeves and produced macro images in front of the entire pub to illustrate that this version of the insert is different.

Silly.