Acceptable amount of loss and gain for a vintage?

[Pureform]

Im curious if COSC means -4 to +6 is acceptable then, why i hear from watchmakers that my 1964 datejust is fine if it gains +10 to +15 for the age of the watch even freshly serviced...

What you guys think?

[coelacanthus]

I think it's totally acceptable. The entire drivetrain has some wear from over 50 years of use, and I wouldn't expect a full COSC spec from it. Also, often the time gain settles a little (not as much as new watch) after using the watch for a while after a service in my experience. Either way, I'd be totally happily wear it with +10 to +15 sec time keeping.

[Richard Carver]

I wouldn't accept that. I've never had a 'freshly serviced' Rolex do that poorly. My daily 1968 1603 was serviced in 2015 and does 2 seconds a day.

[toxicavenger]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

I wouldn't accept that. I've never had a 'freshly serviced' Rolex do that poorly. My daily 1968 1603 was serviced in 2015 and does 2 seconds a day.

How many "freshly serviced" 50 year old watches have you owned? One watch doing this well definitely does not serve as a benchmark for all watches new or old.

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger

How many "freshly serviced" 50 year old watches have you owned? One watch doing this well definitely does not serve as a benchmark for all watches new or old.

Around 15 'freshly serviced', dozens overall. If one ran that poorly it went into a drawer until servicing. These are all 1570 movements. If one was so worn as to be unable to be regulated to an acceptable standard I would sell it to someone who enjoyed 15 seconds per day. :)

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Around 15 'freshly serviced', dozens overall. If one ran that poorly it went into a drawer until servicing. These are all 1570 movements. If one was so worn as to be unable to be regulated to an acceptable standard I would sell it to someone who enjoyed 15 seconds per day. :)

The datejust I have has a 1560 movement does that apply also?

[toxicavenger]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Around 15 'freshly serviced', dozens overall. If one ran that poorly it went into a drawer until servicing. These are all 1570 movements. If one was so worn as to be unable to be regulated to an acceptable standard I would sell it to someone who enjoyed 15 seconds per day. :)

Well congrats.

[nboyer]

+1

Originally Posted by richard carver

i wouldn't accept that. I've never had a 'freshly serviced' rolex do that poorly. My daily 1968 1603 was serviced in 2015 and does 2 seconds a day.

[springer]

Vintage watches were certified chronometers when new, not 30 or 40 years later. With that said, most vintage watches are very capable of maintaining chronometer certification specs decade after decade.

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by springer

Vintage watches were certified chronometers when new, not 30 or 40 years later. With that said, most vintage watches are very capable of maintaining chronometer certification specs decade after decade.

So plus 10 to 15 seconds not acceptable?

[springer]

Originally Posted by Pureform

So plus 10 to 15 seconds not acceptable?

I don't get that concerned unless we start talking minutes. 15 seconds wouldn't bother me at all.

If you can't get it close to COSC specifications, I'd think some of the internal parts are getting old and worn - probably time to have it professionally evaluated.

[toxicavenger]

Totally acceptable for me. For you maybe not. If i was that particular I would get a quartz.

[05carbondrz]

All of my Watches serviced by Rik at Timecare Inc come back running +2-3/24hrs and “settle in” over a Year or Two to spot on.

[R!$]

im not concerned with accuracy

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by R!$

im not concerned with accuracy

Would you please elaborate? Im curious..

[Model12]

My recent service by my local watchmaker was +5, +10 per day. I tracked it for 6 weeks and got this number. I took it back and he adjusted it back slightly to where it is -4, +5. If your guy is local, take it back and explain where you are and ask for him to adjust.

[Dr.Smellody]

My 1680, 1675, 1601, and 1675 were all essentially spot on following service by my local.

[harry in montreal]

I like mine to be 2-3. Like minutes per week. No joke. When it's off 5-10 mins in a week it's due for a teardown. Setting them doesn't really bother me. I kind of enjoy it. I find my subs cope better when I'm sedentary. If I have a physically active week it loses more.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Pureform

Im curious if COSC means -4 to +6 is acceptable then, why i hear from watchmakers that my 1964 datejust is fine if it gains +10 to +15 for the age of the watch even freshly serviced...

What you guys think?

I think that you are confusing things.

COSC didn't exist until 1974 and so a 1964 Datejust would have never been COSC tested.

The COSC test, when it finally became the standard to be able to put chronometer on the dial, is only conducted/passed once. The watch is never "tested" again, and it may, or may not, continue to meet that standard over the years.

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by Tools

I think that you are confusing things.

COSC didn't exist until 1974 and so a 1964 Datejust would have never been COSC tested.

The COSC test, when it finally became the standard to be able to put chronometer on the dial, is only conducted/passed once. The watch is never "tested" again, and it may, or may not, continue to meet that standard over the years.

Im confused cause my datejust is from 1964 and says superlative chronometer officially certified.... Isnt that COSC? if you say its not then whats a normal minus and gain on these older 1560 movements?

[zapokee]

For me, +10 to +15 is totally acceptable for a watch of that age. Vintage joy supercedes accuracy.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Pureform

Im confused cause my datejust is from 1964 and says superlative chronometer officially certified.... Isnt that COSC? if you say its not then whats a normal minus and gain on these older 1560 movements?

No, that is not COSC.

Before 1974 there were too many manufacturers putting "chronometer" on their dials without any criteria to define what chronometer means.

The Swiss decided in 1974 that a newly created organization, COSC, would develop a testing program that Swiss watches must pass to be able to legally put chronometer on the dial.


10 seconds is not out of line with a 60's era movement. A fresh service and a good watchmaker could make it more accurate. Generally speaking, early Rolex movements were 10 second movements, later faster beat movements were 5 second movements, and the latest crop is advertised as 2 second movements.

[Richard Carver]

There is an erroneous expectation of diminished capacity for vintage items simply because of age. This is compounded by the reality that old products simply aren't as good as more technologically advanced current products. For example, a perfectly restored 1952 MG TD is still a poor excuse for a car in relation to new cars. Is that because it simply can't be restored to original specs? Of course not, even restored it's still a POC.

The point is a 15XX movement can be brought to it's original specs, all it takes is money. When you get one back from service and it's doing 15 seconds a day the most likely reason is it was serviced to a price point and parts weren't replaced that should have been because of that fact. To blame the poor performance on age is disingenuous, it runs poorly because of a service limited by financial constraints. Does anyone really want to spend 2k spec'ing out the movement on a 1964 DJ?

You have choices; accept it, spend the money on your current movement, sell it and find a watch in better condition.

[Frogman4me]

Anything under a minute a day and I'm happy. If it's freshly serviced something within 10-15 seconds is fine for me personally. I don't wear vintage watches for spot on time keeping and I am in the camp that services only when absolutely needed for my personal watches

[J!m]

If the service was done well/correctly, using original parts when needed and not settling for “that part is good enough to keep going” the movement will perform as well as a new movement, so within COSC standards for a chronometer grade movement.

And that is not a Rolex specific statement.

And this is why you seek out those service people who understand this and treat a vintage watch with the care and respect it needs to be “good as new”.

[swish77]

A loss of 15 seconds a day would bug me, but only because I have a little OCD, not because it's out of line with a 50-year-old Rolex. However, a good watchmaker should be able to service/regulate the watch closer to COSC specs.

Keep in mind that even before 1974, there were strict standards for chronometers tested by the Bureaux Suisses. We've all seen these documents from the '60s that show accuracy very close to COSC standards. In other words, a 1964 DJ certainly has the potential to be as accurate as a COSC-certified watch.