New to AP - Thoughts on a classic, smaller RO piece?

[cmdr_foley]

Hey all,

I'm pretty new to the AP world. I recently had a vintage submariner stolen off my porch (long story, click here to read: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...en+5513&page=4)

Anyway, I've been looking at something nice to serve as a replacement, and at first was drawn to the PP Nautilus, but am put off by the exorbitant prices currently (and I just don't feel right paying higher than MSRP).

Of course, because of the similar design origins I was then drawn to the Royal Oak. I've done a lot of browsing and based what I've seen, I think I want:

1. Simple RO - I'm not a big fan of the busy chronometer dials
2. Non-offshore - I want to be able to pair with a suit occasionally
3. Stainless steel - again, classic. Although I've seen some two-tone ones that I wouldn't say no to...
4. Blue dial preferred, black dial a close second - it seem that the blue dials are harder to come by and often at a premium
5. Smaller case size: My submariner 5513 was a 38mm and I'm actually hoping to stick to around the same size or even slightly smaller. I have a 7.5" wrist, but I just prefer a more subtle watch case size

Any recommendations based on the above? I've been looking at the 15450, but they don't seem to come up for sale very often.

What about vintage? I love the looks of the vintage APs - the 14790, or of course the 5402. The smaller sizes of the vintage pieces seem to suit my size preference. But due to rarity I suspect they would be out of my price range?

With regard to vintage pieces - are they difficult to service, or particularly expensive to service? Should I be looking at modern pieces instead?

I'm looking to spend $12-14k ideally, but based on what I'm seeing it looks like I should be saving up a little longer... and expect to spend at least $16-18k for a good example - about right?

Would be interested in opinions!

BTW, I'm hoping this will be my last acquisition... for real this time! Anyone out have a RO as their only watch? Would love to hear thoughts on that.

[whan]

15450ST blue dial would be my recommendation. 37mm Royal oak wears a bit larger for it's dimensions overall, but not by a crazy amount. Felt like it wore smaller than my BLNR that I traded in but similar to a 40mm gold daytona I tried on at an AD

Definitely a premium for blue dial - $16-$18 probably sounds about right for a good example of that. White/Rhodium/Black dial I think you can grab a great example for $14-$15 (I got my white one for $14.5).

Defer to others on vintage vs. current, but I'd vote modern. Primarily because I think the newer bracelets are more robust, and don't have to worry about past polishing history. Also not having to service for a while is a plus - think people said service is $800-$1k for a standard RO movement.

My RO is my primary watch - rotated with a Tudor BB as more of a gym shorts / adventure watch. I'd say the RO is on the dressy end of a sports watch - it does feel a bit out of place if you take it skiing / hiking, but perfect with anything from a put-together casual wear (IE not just gym shorts / sweats) up to suit and tie. It being a sports watch at heart I still probably wouldn't wear it with black tie and above.

[mnl]

I have a 15450 and I like it more every day. I have no experience with vintage so can’t help there, but I think the 15450 is a great option for you. I love the size, I think it wears a bit smaller than some current Rolex options that I’ve tried on like the submariner, very similar in size to the Daytona. If you can, you should try one on first tho, but I know it’s not easy to find one to try…
It is my only watch and the only reason I’m thinking of buying another watch sometime in the next few years is just so I have something to wear when I have to send this for a service. I can’t imagine buying another watch and wanting to wear that over the RO, it is just perfect in every way for me.

[cmdr_foley]

Are there typically wait lists through ADs for the 15450s nowadays? What is the usual MSRP through the ADs for this?

Anyone in Toronto who can offer advice on procuring in the great white north?

Also... bezel scratch issues! Is this not really appropriate for a daily/only watch?

[mnl]

Originally Posted by cmdr_foley

Are there typically wait lists through ADs for the 15450s nowadays? What is the usual MSRP through the ADs for this?

Anyone in Toronto who can offer advice on procuring in the great white north?

Also... bezel scratch issues! Is this not really appropriate for a daily/only watch?

I got mine new, list price in the US is $16,500 + tax (just over 18k for me). I was able to get it with very little wait, like 2 months I think it was. And I actually requested that delivery date so maybe I could’ve gotten it a little bit before that. But it also depends on the dial color, blue takes longer since there’s more demand, I got the grey one.

Like I said, it’s my only watch, so I wear it every day, all day. I’ve got a few scratches but they’re mostly on the bracelet, there’s nothing noticeable on the bezel yet. I got it around 6 months ago.

[bluebeamer]

15300 or 15202 are the perfect size at 39mm

[cmdr_foley]

Congrats on the relatively new acquisition! It seems that resale isn’t crazy over MSRP then?

Perhaps a pre-owned, well worn piece would be better for me. That way I wouldn’t worry about dings and scratches as much. As long as the movement is in good shape.

I would like to see what an older model with wrist time looks like after a few years. I personally like the worn in look (at least in vintage rolexes), but I wonder how well an AP would age. Trouble is in Toronto I’m not quite sure where to go to see one in person. Will keep checking out mywatchmart!


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[mnl]

Originally Posted by cmdr_foley

Congrats on the relatively new acquisition! It seems that resale isn’t crazy over MSRP then?

Perhaps a pre-owned, well worn piece would be better for me. That way I wouldn’t worry about dings and scratches as much. As long as the movement is in good shape.

I would like to see what an older model with wrist time looks like after a few years. I personally like the worn in look (at least in vintage rolexes), but I wonder how well an AP would age. Trouble is in Toronto I’m not quite sure where to go to see one in person. Will keep checking out mywatchmart!


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Thank you!! Yeah from what I’ve seen/heard the used price is not far from retail, which is good for everyone i think haha

Haven’t really looked for these used tbh, but the ones that I’ve come across have fallen into two categories for the most part:
Really good condition overall
Over polished, looks terrible, loosing all the cool angles and finishing that makes this watch what it is

You should definitely try to find one in person tho, it’s a different animal in person than it is on photos. I was lucky to be able to find a used one from the 80’s to try it, it was 35mm iirc. After that i went to what used to be an AD at the time to try on the 15450 with diamonds (only one they had, but same size so that’s what matters) and the 15400, which they luckily had even tho it had been sold already. That helped me figure out the right size for me and ordered it from the boutique not long after.

[cityboy10]

Originally Posted by cmdr_foley

Congrats on the relatively new acquisition! It seems that resale isn’t crazy over MSRP then?

Perhaps a pre-owned, well worn piece would be better for me. That way I wouldn’t worry about dings and scratches as much. As long as the movement is in good shape.

I would like to see what an older model with wrist time looks like after a few years. I personally like the worn in look (at least in vintage rolexes), but I wonder how well an AP would age. Trouble is in Toronto I’m not quite sure where to go to see one in person. Will keep checking out mywatchmart!


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Try RDV on Bloor St., I believe they are an AD. There is also another place in Yorkville that is an AD.

[Elie Francis]

15400 two tone with silver dial. It is discontinued and very rare but if you can find one around 25k, i would highly suggest you purchase it. Future classic in my opinion.

[Frits1980]

Please stop saying the 15450 wears similar to a Daytona or pre-ceramic sub. Its wears a lot smaller. I have the 15450 and 15400.
Its not the case but the dial. Its realy small. I also like smaller watches but the 15450 is to small for my '7inch wrist so no way it will work for a/your '7,5 wrist. I would even say it wears/looks smaller on the wrist then a DJ 36. Again, its the tiny dial and not the case size that makes it look small.

Pic with my Daytona and 14060m

[whan]

Originally Posted by Frits1980

Please stop saying the 15450 wears similar to a Daytona or pre-ceramic sub. Its wears a lot smaller. I have the 15450 and 15400.
Its not the case but the dial. Its realy small. I also like smaller watches but the 15450 is to small for my '7inch wrist so no way it will work for a/your '7,5 wrist. I would even say it wears/looks smaller on the wrist then a DJ 36. Again, its the tiny dial and not the case size that makes it look small.

Pic with my Daytona and 14060m

I get where you're coming from, but would argue that from an overall presence on the wrist it definitely wears larger than a 37mm size. Agree that focusing on the dial alone, head-on it can look small, but at any other angle the case feels like it has the same size as a Daytona

That said, just re-read and realized OP has a 7.5 inch wrist, and I'd agree he might be better served with the 15300 / 39mm. 15450 works for me with a 6.75" wrist but can see it feeling small on 7.25"+

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by Frits1980

Please stop saying the 15450 wears similar to a Daytona or pre-ceramic sub. Its wears a lot smaller. I have the 15450 and 15400.
Its not the case but the dial. Its realy small. I also like smaller watches but the 15450 is to small for my '7inch wrist so no way it will work for a/your '7,5 wrist. I would even say it wears/looks smaller on the wrist then a DJ 36. Again, its the tiny dial and not the case size that makes it look small.

Pic with my Daytona and 14060m

Completely agree with you

[Lgear080]

39mm AP RO wears very small imo. 41mm at a minimum if you’re xl.

[hopkinswatch22]

I would also look at the 15300 at 39mm. To me the 39mm is the perfect size for the RO. The 15400 was a little to large for my 7" wrist and I would agree that the 15450 wore too small. They are hard to find as I don't see them popping up for sale too often, but if you can find one I would snatch it up. You really can't go wrong no matter which one you choose to go with. Good luck in the search!

[holdtime]

Recommend 15450 Blue.

[holdtime]

One for Sale here.
TRF BNIB Audemars Piguet Royal Oak 15450 Blue dia

[bruinmd]

With your wrist size, you should be wearing a 15400, IMHO.

I think a 15450 is too small, and I don't agree with others that it wears anything close to a Rolex 40mm. I have 2 116500 Daytonas, a Sub LVC, and got rid of my 15450 b/c it felt too 'dainty. '

Maybe you should wait to see what the new AP line looks like before you decide? Word is that it might be on the dressier side.

[AK797]

I'd avoid the AP vintage market which is not as vibrant as others, plus you need to do a lot of homework, so the blue 450 sounds like your best bet. Or possibly an older 15202 of the previous design so from say 2008-12.

[WristEnvy]

For my wrist the 15450 works better for this kind of watch. It's true the dimensions of the dial looks small when compared to the 15400, but it took up my entire wrist. At least for me, if I want a larger AP as an FU it's too big for my wrist but I don't care, I'd get a ROO diver.



When I has a silver 15400st

[karasus]

Originally Posted by cmdr_foley

Hey all,

I'm pretty new to the AP world. I recently had a vintage submariner stolen off my porch (long story, click here to read: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...en+5513&page=4)

Anyway, I've been looking at something nice to serve as a replacement, and at first was drawn to the PP Nautilus, but am put off by the exorbitant prices currently (and I just don't feel right paying higher than MSRP).

Of course, because of the similar design origins I was then drawn to the Royal Oak. I've done a lot of browsing and based what I've seen, I think I want:

1. Simple RO - I'm not a big fan of the busy chronometer dials
2. Non-offshore - I want to be able to pair with a suit occasionally
3. Stainless steel - again, classic. Although I've seen some two-tone ones that I wouldn't say no to...
4. Blue dial preferred, black dial a close second - it seem that the blue dials are harder to come by and often at a premium
5. Smaller case size: My submariner 5513 was a 38mm and I'm actually hoping to stick to around the same size or even slightly smaller. I have a 7.5" wrist, but I just prefer a more subtle watch case size

Any recommendations based on the above? I've been looking at the 15450, but they don't seem to come up for sale very often.

What about vintage? I love the looks of the vintage APs - the 14790, or of course the 5402. The smaller sizes of the vintage pieces seem to suit my size preference. But due to rarity I suspect they would be out of my price range?

With regard to vintage pieces - are they difficult to service, or particularly expensive to service? Should I be looking at modern pieces instead?

I'm looking to spend $12-14k ideally, but based on what I'm seeing it looks like I should be saving up a little longer... and expect to spend at least $16-18k for a good example - about right?

Would be interested in opinions!

BTW, I'm hoping this will be my last acquisition... for real this time! Anyone out have a RO as their only watch? Would love to hear thoughts on that.

Read your story, its a damn shame how the shipping company handled the package without signature. Absolutely abnormal. Bright side though, you are now looking at some pretty iconic pieces.

36-39mm royal oaks, you've got plenty of choices but there are a few that are truly the iconic ones, I went through a lot of research to understand the range and here is what I learned while collecting APs. Most APs that are highly collectible are in the 39mm range, and amongst the time/date only like a submariner you have the following.



5402 - A / B series, No AP logo at 12, black dial, petit tapisserie
https://www.christies.com/features/D...es-9473-1.aspx

Why is it collectible:
- First sports steel luxury watch
- Designed by Gerald Genta, it was his breakthrough design
- Dial by Sterns (Sterns own Patek)
- Bracelet by Gay Freres who also produced the original submariner bracelets, later bought by Rolex because of the quality of their bracelet manufacturing and Rolex didn't want them making bracelets for competitors.
- Thinnest full rotor movement still in 2018 after almost 50 years, movement was jointly developed by JLC-Patek-VC-AP, for JLC to supply to Patek-VC-AP. Its pretty much the best designed movement you can achieve without using machine design software; its a pinnacle of human only engineering.
- Gains value over time

Price: 35-50k USD



5402 - B / C / D AP logo at 12, black dial, petit tapisserie

Why is it collectible:
- Same reasons as A/B early series
- Slightly more affordable due to the different dial design


Price: 25-40k USD


Jubilee/anniversary models - AP logo at 12, grey/black/salmon dial, petit tapisserie:
https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle...review-history

Why is it collectible:
- Very rare, limited quantities.
- Similar in looks to the 5402 B / C / D
- Display caseback

Price: 25-40k USD



(Recommended)15300ST - AP logo at 12, Blue(boutique)/white/black, grand tapisserie:

Why is it collectible:
- Discontinued and rare, especially for blue 15300ST
- The first watch with an in house AP movement the 3120
- 50m water resistance with screwdown (older don't have screw down) so you can easily swim with it, 9mm thick, display case back, full balance bridge with strong and shock design (similar to a rolex), ceramic components in the movement so low maintenance. Modern interpretation of the 5402, with a stronger movement for daily
- Display caseback with a movement that fits the case well.
- Holds and gains value over time

price: 15-30k depending on country, these have nearly doubled in price in some area due to demand especially for blue models
If you want to spend less, go for a black or white dial the blue commands a premium as they are more rare and produced in much smaller numbers for boutiques. AP only had half the number of boutiques back then compared to today.


15202ST - AP logo at 12(older), older(Blue/white/black) new (blue only), petit tapisserie

Why is it collectible:
- Rare, low production numbers, waitlist over 5 years in some places or no longer taking names
- Same movement as the 5402 movement, but with engraving and display case back, its very nice to look at.
- Best finished movement for a time/date only watch
- Holds value well

Price: 26000 - 29000 USD MSRP but will typically resell 30-40k grey.

I hope that helps you, for your budget you can look for a good quality 15300ST, if you get lucky and can acquire a Blue dial 15300 for that price range I would say go for it even if you need to go to AP for service. Service cost on a 15300ST should be only 900.- USD as it is not yet a vintage piece(less than 25 years) so AP will hold to its current collection service prices, only buy vintage if the movement has been serviced prior by AP or you could be in for a nasty surprise.

[cmdr_foley]

Wow karasus that’s a very comprehensive overview and exactly what I needed. I love the bits of history you’ve included in your analysis as well - that’s what I really enjoy about these classic pieces. Like in any hobby or collection it’s really these stories that give these pieces life. It’s part of why I decided on going with the 5513... until it was stolen... at least it wasn’t an heirloom watch.

I’m gonna take the advice to heart and hold out for a nice 15300. I would love a 5402 but I suspect when one does come up it will be out of my budget.

I do like the blue dial, but the black dial looks quite sharp as well and it’s a close second for me.


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[red1108nyc]

You really need to try various options to see how it sits on your wrist. Nice pictures is just what it is.. a picture. The wrist feel is key. Your difficulty will be to actually find a 15300 to try.

[cmdr_foley]

I had a similar problem when going through my options for vintage submariner. Obviously it’s difficult to try a specific piece on if it happens to be across the continent. I had to take an educated guess based on other factors and trying similar pieces, and it seemed to work out.

Being in Toronto there are less places to see one in the metal, but I might take a trip out to RDV as suggested.


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