Difference between PP holding back Nautilus and AP holding back RO

[rossi46]

Per the recent interview with PP CEO re: Nautilus production, it's clear PP views themselves very much as a company that makes complicated, PM watches... with this little "side gig" selling a couple sport SS peices. That's their legacy and they will not make more Nautilus just to meet market demand. Stern wants a situation where, when someone thinks of PP, they think 5970, not 5711. And, I mostly understand/support that.

I do think they are ignoring a distinct change to consumer taste (more casual, sporty watches in SS is clearly the future) and are probably suffering from groupthink in thinking that there will always be boatloads of buyers for their PM offerings. That said, they do have the best legacy for complicated haute horology pieces (and in PM).

When it comes to AP, however, I think it's a very different situation. Long ago AP stopped being in that same genre as PP. They accepted their fate as the holders of the RO legacy and went all-in.

What's the justification, then, for holding back production of the RO. And I mean ANY RO: 15202, 41mm and 37mm, date only and chronos. I mean, are they worried that if just anyone could walk in off the street and buy a Jumbo that somehow devalues the brand?

Because not 3 years ago I walked into the NYC boutique to get links removed from my 15300 and I tried on a 15202 that was available for sale right then and there. I certainly didn't think less of AP because the flagship model was available. AP is the RO. Why act as if there's something else to "protect" a la PP?

Would love to get other's opinions on the comparison between what PP and AP are doing vis a vis Nautilus and RO.

[singe89]

AP was hurting during the quarts crisis and the RO saved them. They really didn't have an option but to become a "one watch" brand. However in doing so it also opened up an entirely new market of the luxury sport watch and that market is the only one really in favor right now and probably will for the foreseeable future as we continue to get more and more casual.

I think AP is in the same league as Patek and while they the brand image might be slightly lower among the masses they are bringing much more innovation to watch making than PP. As consumers become more educated (AP needs better marketing) they can make some great strides.

I also think AP should focus more on their high end RO and ROOs and promoting the technical achievements in HH sport watches rather then trying to bring a sport dress watch ala the CODE into production. The ceramic PC, lap timer, grand comps, concepts, skeletions, etc. Younger buyers are getting into watches via pop culture and social media. Get the teens, 20 and 30 year old aspiring to buy a SS RO or ROO then as their income increases get them into more complicated HH pieces. Patek doesn't have truly complicated sport watches so AP should focus on what they do best.

I would guess most new watch consumers at this point have more money than in the past. They know Rolex but want something better/more exclusive. Patek is widely known as the best but they don't want a dress model so they gravitate to the the nautilus and/or the aquanaut. AP marketing should be focusing on their history of making complicated SPORT watches that are highly exclusive. They have the history RM doesn't and the complications in the sport models that PP doesn't.

[wiswrist]

Originally Posted by singe89

I think AP is in the same league as Patek and while they the brand image might be slightly lower among the masses they are bringing much more innovation to watch making than PP.

I would guess most new watch consumers at this point have more money than in the past. They know Rolex but want something better/more exclusive. Patek is widely known as the best but they don't want a dress model so they gravitate to the the nautilus and/or the aquanaut. AP marketing should be focusing on their history of making complicated SPORT watches that are highly exclusive. They have the history RM doesn't and the complications in the sport models that PP doesn't.

I agree.

I don't think Rolex, PP, and AP really changed their business practices ... the market for these brands changed drastically (for a variety of reasons) and I think some people are upset that the brands didn't change to accommodate it.

There are a lot of new, self-proclaimed, WIS now ... Just look at TRF membership in the last 2 years ... hopefully it all settles down a bit once a lot of them move onto the next big thing.

[AK797]

The 202 has always been tough-ish to get, esp in the UK, never seen it on display and was always told will be a few months to a year, so that piece was a bit like the Daytona and was never intended to be a mass market piece, however as the market has got so hyped recently I think AP are smart to limit distribution, not production which I am sure is the same, of the other ROs, not only to keep the hype and interest in the brand going but also to ensure the watches go to genuine buyers.

Rolex might quite like the fact their watches are hyped up, not that they weren't very well known before, but I bet they wish they had had a bit more business savvy and nous to have had better allocation policies and discipline to stop their watches getting so flipped, as now they have just become such overt commodities to the masses, and more tellingly, as we see now on the forums even to many WIS.

[Commonproject]

For some reason I remember someone telling me that AP sells used watches, so they can buy it back at a low price and make the margin once more. Not sure if it's true or not.

[systematic.entropy]

Originally Posted by Commonproject

For some reason I remember someone telling me that AP sells used watches, so they can buy it back at a low price and make the margin once more. Not sure if it's true or not.

There was some chatter, maybe a year ago, about AP getting into the pre-owned market. But, I have not heard or seen any official development about that. I imagine that if they did, they would limit themselves to AP only pieces.

[singe89]

Originally Posted by systematic.entropy

There was some chatter, maybe a year ago, about AP getting into the pre-owned market. But, I have not heard or seen any official development about that. I imagine that if they did, they would limit themselves to AP only pieces.

They should totally do it sooner than later. Buy up all their old pieces for pennies on the dollar, give a few to John Mayer and other watch inluencers and create a really strong vintage AP market with way over inflated prices.

[systematic.entropy]

Originally Posted by rossi46

Would love to get other's opinions on the comparison between what PP and AP are doing vis a vis Nautilus and RO.

I think AP is playing the safe bet while they come up with a long term strategy and/or see what happens to the market. It's a safe bet, it maintains brand equity, and it keeps up with what others have been doing (Rolex and PP).

That being said, I think/hope once the market cools (bubble pops), we'll see some very interesting behavior from AP, PP and Rolex.

[dmacintyre]

Originally Posted by rossi46

Per the recent interview with PP CEO re: Nautilus production, it's clear PP views themselves very much as a company that makes complicated, PM watches... with this little "side gig" selling a couple sport SS peices. That's their legacy and they will not make more Nautilus just to meet market demand. Stern wants a situation where, when someone thinks of PP, they think 5970, not 5711. And, I mostly understand/support that.

I do think they are ignoring a distinct change to consumer taste (more casual, sporty watches in SS is clearly the future) and are probably suffering from groupthink in thinking that there will always be boatloads of buyers for their PM offerings. That said, they do have the best legacy for complicated haute horology pieces (and in PM).

When it comes to AP, however, I think it's a very different situation. Long ago AP stopped being in that same genre as PP. They accepted their fate as the holders of the RO legacy and went all-in.

What's the justification, then, for holding back production of the RO. And I mean ANY RO: 15202, 41mm and 37mm, date only and chronos. I mean, are they worried that if just anyone could walk in off the street and buy a Jumbo that somehow devalues the brand?

Because not 3 years ago I walked into the NYC boutique to get links removed from my 15300 and I tried on a 15202 that was available for sale right then and there. I certainly didn't think less of AP because the flagship model was available. AP is the RO. Why act as if there's something else to "protect" a la PP?

Would love to get other's opinions on the comparison between what PP and AP are doing vis a vis Nautilus and RO.

You forgot to write IMHO at the end. A lot of this is just your hot take and not necessarily fact.

With regards to the 15202, my understanding is the constraint is the movement and dial of which they can only make so many in a given year due to skill pool and internal resource limitations. They want to make other watches too.

Similarly, Patek have to decide how to allocate limited resources across the portfolio of models they wish to produce. Both companies want to make watches to appeal to a range of tastes and to comply with a corporate identity which means not everything out the door can be a Nautilus or Jumbo. Believe it or not, in a normal market, not every customer wants these “sports” references. A single grande complication can suck up the resources of several simple sports models. Now add instagram, the self-serving Mayer & Hodinkee et al, people chasing what they can’t have, burgeoning nouveau riche and you create a deficit in the supply. There might be a little reluctance to over produce the cheaper sports models on the part of PP and AP but there are other forces at work.

Having said that, I think the Rolex bubble is completely artificial and deliberate.

[GB-man]

You’re believing what TS or FHB tells you in interviews which is your first mistake.

Both brands are merely copying Rolex’s model of Daytona allocation in order to create hype. It’s working. That’s all.

[Commonproject]

Originally Posted by dmacintyre

You forgot to write IMHO at the end. A lot of this is just your hot take and not necessarily fact.

With regards to the 15202, my understanding is the constraint is the movement and dial of which they can only make so many in a given year due to skill pool and internal resource limitations. They want to make other watches too.

Have you seen the AP dial production videos? They churn those things out like crazy, so definitely artificially restricting supply.

[dmacintyre]

Originally Posted by Commonproject

Have you seen the AP dial production videos? They churn those things out like crazy, so definitely artificially restricting supply.

Petite tapisserie? That pantograph process doesn’t look like “churning them out” to me.

[Muxi]

Originally Posted by dmacintyre

You forgot to write IMHO at the end. A lot of this is just your hot take and not necessarily fact.

With regards to the 15202, my understanding is the constraint is the movement and dial of which they can only make so many in a given year due to skill pool and internal resource limitations. They want to make other watches too.

Similarly, Patek have to decide how to allocate limited resources across the portfolio of models they wish to produce. Both companies want to make watches to appeal to a range of tastes and to comply with a corporate identity which means not everything out the door can be a Nautilus or Jumbo. Believe it or not, in a normal market, not every customer wants these “sports” references. A single grande complication can suck up the resources of several simple sports models. Now add instagram, the self-serving Mayer & Hodinkee et al, people chasing what they can’t have, burgeoning nouveau riche and you create a deficit in the supply. There might be a little reluctance to over produce the cheaper sports models on the part of PP and AP but there are other forces at work.

Having said that, I think the Rolex bubble is completely artificial and deliberate.

“I think” = IMHO

[Uros]

This discussion is not complete without financial figures for both AP and PP. Would assume AP is doing extremely well with its RO/ROO line, also wouldn’t be surprised if PP major profit contributor is nautilus and not high end PM pieces.

AP is just giving to the market what it wants, steel versions of their favorite watch and I completely support it...


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