Journe vs gronefeld

[Ilushka85]

Trying to decide between two watches for my next watch. Looking for opinions and help.

Fp journe bleu

Gronefeld 1918 remontaire


And go....

[PJ S]

All the Gronefeld Remontoires are now sold, unless you’re looking at a pre-owned one or reserved allocation slot, with final deliveries in 18 months time or a bit more.
As different as the Chronometre Bleu is, with its dial and case material, the Remontoire is a much nicer watch, especially if you’re paying over retail for the CB.
If you’re lucky to get a slot for the Remontoire, then you may still have time to choose a bespoke dial colour and guilloché pattern.

Might you take a bit of a punt at the Remontoire Only Watch next month?

If you haven’t already, get yourself over to Manfredi and/or Cellini’s, and try on the Rementoire, to make sure it’s all you imagine/expect.

[bigfatpauli]

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

[BigAppleBill]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

I happen to love the look, feel and build quality of FPJ. What was it about an FPJ model that you didn’t like when it was on your wrist? Just genuinely curious to know what you didn’t like. Thx.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBill

I happen to love the look, feel and build quality of FPJ. What was it about an FPJ model that you didn’t like when it was on your wrist? Just genuinely curious to know what you didn’t like. Thx.

I don't want to take anything away from anyone that owns one and loves it. They are certainly one of the "it" watches right now.

In person they are fine but I don't care for the company and their philosophy from the top down. I also don't care for their manufacturing process.

[BigAppleBill]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I don't want to take anything away from anyone that owns one and loves it. They are certainly one of the "it" watches right now.

In person they are fine but I don't care for the company and their philosophy from the top down. I also don't care for their manufacturing process.

But have you ever had one on your wrist? Have you ever held the watch in your hand and turned it over to see the solid 18K (handmade) movement in person with your own eyes? Have you wound the crown and felt the smoothness? Have you seen how unbelievably thin the watch is as it sits on your wrist, yet still manages to deliver a satisfying heft because of the tantalum case? If not, then I would caution you not to dismiss the watch because you’ve seen it in photos or on someone else’s wrist. I see you’re in the NYC area. I would be happy to oblige you an up close experience of my personal CB if you’re interested.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBill

But have you ever had one on your wrist? Have you ever held the watch in your hand and turned it over to see the solid 18K (handmade) movement in person with your own eyes? Have you wound the crown and felt the smoothness? Have you seen how unbelievably thin the watch is as it sits on your wrist, yet still manages to deliver a satisfying heft because of the tantalum case? If not, then I would caution you not to dismiss the watch because you’ve seen it in photos or on someone else’s wrist. I see you’re in the NYC area. I would be happy to oblige you an up close experience of my personal CB if you’re interested.

Hi BigAppleBill,

Yes, I have actually spent quite a bit of time looking at FPJ's both at dealers and wearing one for a week (borrowed from a friend who has one). The CS was on my short list for a while. Although I have not seen a CB in the metal, I have experience with many of their other watches.

The brand isn't for me. That's a me thing. Everyone can like, or dislike whatever they want.

I really appreciate your kind offer of meeting up. It is always nice to meet a fellow watch lover! After all, I don't run into fellow WIS in my everyday life and it is always special to share our passion. If I'm in NYC in the near future, I will be sure to let you know, and if you are ever in Toronto I am happy to show you were to get the good coffee

-Paul

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

They make <700 per year.

That's significantly less than 2000/yr which already is a lot less than most.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

They make <700 per year.

That's significantly less than 2000/yr which already is a lot less than most.

Let me rephrase what I wrote for you...

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

I hope that's better.

My point was that production numbers have no impact on whether or not their product is likeable to me. Just because they can only sell 700 (or 2000 or 2) watches a year doesn't make them good or bad.

[DGB]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Let me rephrase what I wrote for you...

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

I hope that's better.

My point was that production numbers have no impact on whether or not their product is likeable to me. Just because they can only sell 700 (or 2000 or 2) watches a year doesn't make them good or bad.

FPJ is limited production, not mass produced, but you corrected that.

They are hand made not machine made as you wrongly mentioned and also hand assembled in Geneva thus its limited production.

You got one number correct, that is 99% .... but that is the watch components they build themselves.

Each watch is a masterpiece of innovation, FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

FPJ is way above standard luxury watches. The CB dial is unique with the way it reflects light, no picture can capture that like the naked eye can.

That’s why FPJ is highly respected and sought after.


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[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by DGB

FPJ is limited production, not mass produced, but you corrected that.

They are hand made not machine made as you wrongly mentioned and also hand assembled in Geneva thus its limited production.

You got one number correct, that is 99% .... but that is the watch components they build themselves.

Each watch is a masterpiece of innovation, FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

FPJ is way above standard luxury watches. The CB dial is unique with the way it reflects light, no picture can capture that like the naked eye can.

That’s why FPJ is highly respected and sought after.


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Again, I don't want to take anything away from anyone's enjoyment of their FPJ. Believe what you will about the brand and the "hand made" marketing.

Enjoy your watch, as that really is all they are meant for.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by DGB

FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

That honor belongs to DeBethune.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by DGB

FPJ is limited production, not mass produced, but you corrected that.

They are hand made not machine made as you wrongly mentioned and also hand assembled in Geneva thus its limited production.

You got one number correct, that is 99% .... but that is the watch components they build themselves.

Each watch is a masterpiece of innovation, FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

FPJ is way above standard luxury watches. The CB dial is unique with the way it reflects light, no picture can capture that like the naked eye can.

That’s why FPJ is highly respected and sought after.


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Completely agree with the above!

Paul, you mentioned AKRIVIA as being one of the best non-mass produced makers...

Where did Rexhep Rexhepi work prior to starting AKRIVIA?

In case you didn't know, it was Patek Philippe AND Montres Journe. Rexhep admired the way FP Journe watches are made so much that he has adopted the same procedure whereby one watchmaker makes the watch from start to finish, which is not how the other brands you mentioned work. Every FP Journe watch can be traced back to a specific watchmaker, so that's hardly a process one follows if "mass produced" is what you're aiming for.

[watchucallit]

I own the FPJ CS and a Gronefeld Rementoire and I wear the Gronefeld often but rarely the FPJ... Just my own preference.

How do you know they are sold out? They still have them listed as being available on their website. I have been considering a Parallax Tourbillon ....

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I own the FPJ CS and a Gronefeld Rementoire and I wear the Gronefeld often but rarely the FPJ... Just my own preference.

How do you know they are sold out? They still have them listed as being available on their website. I have been considering a Parallax Tourbillon ....

The Remontoire is a 188 pieces production, and, AFAIK, the order book is now closed.
Doesn’t mean ADs haven’t bought a couple for their own inventory in what colour/dial version they think will have the widest appeal, or what Gronefeld could supply them with sooner rather than later.
The watch has been available to order since its introduction in 2016.

[Ilushka85]

My issue is buying a gronefeld at retail is unknown resale and the two with bespoke dials I have seen for sale have sold well below... while the cs bleu is selling above retail and seems to be climbing.

I move in and out of watches a lot so would like to be able to get out if I can without losing my ass.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Ilushka85

My issue is buying a gronefeld at retail is unknown resale and the two with bespoke dials I have seen for sale have sold well below... while the cs bleu is selling above retail and seems to be climbing.

I move in and out of watches a lot so would like to be able to get out if I can without losing my ass.

Then the answer is starring you right in the face… so much for needing our help or input.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Then the answer is starring you right in the face… so much for needing our help or input.

Yeah second hand value is a concern, go Journe.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Yeah second hand value is a concern, go Journe.

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?

You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by joli160

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?

You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

I've always wondered this as well. Sure, they don't make a ton of watches, but it's extremely impressive (and telling) that not many hit the secondary market.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by joli160

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?



You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

Well at only ~300 watches / year worldwide I’m not surprised they are hard to find second hand . I would imagine they would have a small target audience , making it harder to sell and hence the person selling to a gray would take a bloodbath to the point of not making it worth it to sell... just a theory. With that said , I tried on a few today and love the design language and the movement. Only tried on SS, however and found it hard to stomach a SS watch for the asking price . But really did like them .






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[tom2517]

Originally Posted by joli160

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?

You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

I had seen them come up for sale.

Gronfeld is like my Eichi II and SBGZ001, not many made and rarely comes up for sale. But they are still a niche market, only particular people likes them. If you need liquidity right away, they don’t do well. That’s why I said FPJ is better.

[benlee]

Originally Posted by Ilushka85

My issue is buying a gronefeld at retail is unknown resale and the two with bespoke dials I have seen for sale have sold well below... while the cs bleu is selling above retail and seems to be climbing.

I move in and out of watches a lot so would like to be able to get out if I can without losing my ass.

I have ordered a Gronefeld remontaire because it's such a beautiful watch. That said, my advice is don't bother with indies in general if resale and value retention is important. They are unpredictable and often horrid because there is such a small market demand. Stick to AP / PP / Rolex popular models if resale is important.

[Ilushka85]

Yes but the question is if you think prices will stabilize and come up on the gronefeld like they did on the fpj

[GB-man]

Hating on FPJ for being mass produced is beyond fawkt.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Hating on FPJ for being mass produced is beyond fawkt.

Indeed!

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Hating on FPJ for being mass produced is beyond fawkt.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said anything about 'hating' the brand, much less hating it for being mass produced.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said anything about 'hating' the brand, much less hating it for being mass produced.

Yes I was referencing this.

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Yes I was referencing this.

It is just another mass produced watch. So are most Langes, and I love that brand. Neither brand is Gronefeld or Akriva.

Me not liking FPJ has nothing to do with production volume.

[Lo100169]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said anything about 'hating' the brand, much less hating it for being mass produced.

FPJ is not mass produced:
- they made about 40 grande sonnerie in total, it took them years to develop the watch
- production of the CB is now 100 a year
- the make 700 watches a year in total

They use state of the art machinery to produce the watch components to high standards, then apply hand finishing while a single watchmaker assembles the entire watch.
It is a different philosophy than P. Dufour who does everything old school.
that is why i like FPJ so much, it is a great balance between tradition and modernity.

And definitely not a mass production.