The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

First, a giant thank you to all of the TRF experts that helped me realize the mistake that I had made and for prompting the valuable lesson that I needed to learn, apparently!

In what I thought was a decent transaction, I had acquired a 1970 "Red Sub." In part because the watch had been serviced/restored by Rolliworks in May of 2019, and in part because I was sort of an idiot, I never thought to consider that the hour markers and hands had both, at some point, been re-lumed.

Thanks to some respectful and expert TRFers, it's been highlighted for me. Aside from a bit of embarrassment, Imm now faced with trying to figure out...

What next????

Do I take this thing to RSC and try my very best to get the proper, though elusive, "red service dial" (I assume they'd change the bezel insert too)? Do I have one of the expert watchmakers do their best to "restore" the dial ("restore" patina...I know)? Do I nothing aside from fully disclosing the condition and trying to sell it? Do I do nothing and wear it (I'm not the guy who cares about the re-lume very much but I also hesitate to wear around an acrylic domed watch from 1970 on a daily basis). No matter what, I'm going to take a bath on this watch, I understand but...

If you were me, what would you do?

Thanks for your input!

[TimeLord2]

Post pictures. Sounds very nice, but if you are worried about resale, you can certainly source some period correct hands. I'm not sure if you are indicating the dial is also service. If that is the case, there have been a few red sub articles on this forum with owners who have had the dial replaced by Rolex Geneva, after careful consideration and an evaluation by Rolex, with a period correct version. Certainly worth a try. Besides, they are rare and will most likely increase in value over time. The watch is meant to be worn, it's much more resilient than you think—even at 50 years old. 200 Metres of water = 284.46 Pounds per square inch.

Actually just saw the listing, I think anyone would be happy to own that gem. Source some period correct hands.

[swish77]

I’d try to return the watch if the relume wasn’t disclosed, and/or the description was otherwise misleading, such as “all original.”

How long ago did you buy it and was it a seller some of us might know?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by swish77

I’d try to return the watch if the relume wasn’t disclosed, and/or the description was otherwise misleading, such as “all original.”

How long ago did you buy it and was it a seller some of us might know?

It was described as:

"Excellent MK IV Red Dial with creamy plots and matching hands"

Re-lume wasn't disclosed. I've had the watch for about a month now.

Seller is a member here but not really a "re-seller" or known seller.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

It was described as:

"Excellent MK IV Red Dial with creamy plots and matching hands"

Re-lume wasn't disclosed. I've had the watch for about a month now.

Seller is a member here but not really a "re-seller" or known seller.

OP, while I hate that you didn’t get the watch you wanted, something about this thread makes me uncomfortable.

So he sold it ‘as is’ and didn’t use knowingly false or misleading language in his ad.

What exactly are you using as justification for a refund? How were you duped?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

OP, while I hate that you didn’t get the watch you wanted, something about this thread makes me uncomfortable.

So he sold it ‘as is’ and didn’t use knowingly false or misleading language in his ad.

What exactly are you using as justification for a refund? How were you duped?

"Duped" implies that the seller did it on purpose; I don't believe he did anything on purpose. I suppose that a guarantee of "100% authenticity" opens up a still different debate, but that is the guarantee that I'd be relying on. I would suppose that technically speaking, one could argue authenticity, but such an argument would seem in bad faith.

You definitely raise a fair point, though, and one I've spent today thinking over. I have no certainty.

[Styles Bitchley]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

OP, while I hate that you didn’t get the watch you wanted, something about this thread makes me uncomfortable.



So he sold it ‘as is’ and didn’t use knowingly false or misleading language in his ad.



What exactly are you using as justification for a refund? How were you duped?

You don’t think sellers should disclose in an ad that a vintage watch has been relumed?

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by swish77

I’d try to return the watch if the relume wasn’t disclosed, and/or the description was otherwise misleading, such as “all original.”

How long ago did you buy it and was it a seller some of us might know?

I can empathise with lots of things connected with buying and selling, it's an art in itself, but we should always, always remember; CAVEAT EMPTOR; it helps stem the bloody nose when you have made a bad deal. Sometimes you have to walk away, wipe your nose, dry your eyes and start again.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

I can empathise with lots of things connected with buying and selling, it's an art in itself, but we should always, always remember; CAVEAT EMPTOR; it helps stem the bloody nose when you have made a bad deal. Sometimes you have to walk away, wipe your nose, dry your eyes and start again.

Amen. I'm usually fairly good at that...missed the mark on this one.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Post pictures. Sounds very nice, but if you are worried about resale, you can certainly source some period correct hands. I'm not sure if you are indicating the dial is also service. If that is the case, there have been a few red sub articles on this forum with owners who have had the dial replaced by Rolex Geneva, after careful consideration and an evaluation by Rolex, with a period correct version. Certainly worth a try. Besides, they are rare and will most likely increase in value over time. The watch is meant to be worn, it's much more resilient than you think—even at 50 years old. 200 Metres of water = 284.46 Pounds per square inch.

Actually just saw the listing, I think anyone would be happy to own that gem. Source some period correct hands.

Not a service dial, but re-lumed hour markers...

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Not a service dial, but re-lumed hour markers...

A little lax on my reading comprehension. Still might be worth trying to contact one of the TRF people who have replaced the dial with a "service" but period correct version from Rolex. Swish77 does have a great point though. If the re-lume job was done and not disclosed, that's not cool and perhaps you should contact the seller.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

A little lax on my reading comprehension. Still might be worth trying to contact one of the TRF people who have replaced the dial with a "service" but period correct version from Rolex. Swish77 does have a great point though. If the re-lume job was done and not disclosed, that's not cool and perhaps you should contact the seller.

I've sent him a text asking what he knows about it. It was clearly done some time ago as it's not all that active. I'd say it (hour markers and hands) glows for about 15-20 seconds or so after I put a light to it. The hour markers and hands were probably re-lumed at the same time but they are weak enough that I can't believe it happened only six or so months ago (Rolliworks service in May 2019).

[steversaurus]

If you can't return it, I would just keep it and wear it. I would probably even try to get the dial and hands relumed again to a more pleasing look.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by steversaurus

If you can't return it, I would just keep it and wear it. I would probably even try to get the dial and hands relumed again to a more pleasing look.

It's more that it's re-lumed at all than that it's re-lumed poorly:

[Cozmopak]

I think it would be educational for some of the newer members on this forum if photos were posted and why a relume is suspected could be explained.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Cozmopak

I think it would be educational for some of the newer members on this forum if photos were posted and why a relume is suspected could be explained.

As for why the relume is suspected, it is my belief that hour markers of the 1970 vintage should not glow at all given that the original tritium from 1970 would be long dead (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Here's a picture:

[Old Expat Beast]

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

[Noonan]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

Interesting. Isn't the total decay life of Tritium shorter than that amount of time? I didn't think that was possible.

[Cozmopak]

That’s my understanding as well. Is there anything about the appearance of the lume that raises suspicion?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Cozmopak

That’s my understanding as well. Is there anything about the appearance of the lume that raises suspicion?

Not necessarily; I was literally only judging it on the fact that I didn't think there is anyway that the tritium markers would still glow...

Here's a closer pic (alot of shadows of crystal scuffs projecting on to dial):

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

So I might just be being paranoid? I just timed it: Within 23 seconds, the markers and hands were dark but the pip kept shining.

[CalSRQ1]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

I just took my '67 1016 to Rik for a service and he confirmed the same thing...couple of quick seconds of lume after bright light is normal

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by CalSRQ1

I just took my '67 1016 to Rik for a service and he confirmed the same thing...couple of quick seconds of lume after bright light is normal

Normal for that watch of that year, but not for this one. The debate about whether it is re-lumed was determined definitively.

[Juhuatai]

I think just by looking at the plots it's pretty clear that's a relume. Especially in the macro photos you have in your FS post. Also everyone, tritium does not glow by itself. It emits electrons consistently via beta decay which then activates a phosphor in the lume that then glows. I've never seen a 1970 sub glow. Latest would be 67/68 IMO.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

I think just by looking at the plots it's pretty clear that's a relume. Also everyone, tritium does not glow by itself. Tritium activates a phosphor in the lume that then glows. I've never seen a 1970 sub glow. Latest would be 67/68 IMO.

That was the thinking that brought me here...

What would you do now if you were me?

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

That was the thinking that brought me here...

What would you do now if you were me?

You need to contact the seller to get a refund. If they won't refund you, it depends on what you want. If I was keeping it, I could probably get over it. But if you're selling it, you're in a tight spot.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

You need to contact the seller to get a refund. If they won't refund you, it depends on what you want. If I was keeping it, I could probably get over it. But if you're selling it, you're in a tight spot.

Thanks for the input!

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Thanks for the input!

If they won’t refund you see if you can trade it on something worst case scenario

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

That was the thinking that brought me here...

What would you do now if you were me?

Keep it. It's still a fab watch.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

Keep it. It's still a fab watch.

And my birth year.

It's a beautiful watch. I want some degree of certainty, though, before I decide what to do. If it's not re-lumed then it should find it's way to a red sub enthusiast (I am not that and couldn't get used to the crystal or the idea that the watch was fragile...even though it's not actually fragile). If it is re-lumed then, well, I'm not sure what.

I'll post some UV pics soon.