General question about watches

[heresiarh]

Besides the higher end watches being gold and what not, what is there such a high price difference between the 'steel watches' that aren't precious metal.

I'm ignorant when it comes to watches but I know Rolex, Patek, etc etc cost an arm and a leg. But how are they different from Seiko, Citizen etc ... What is the difference between Swiss and Japenese movement?

I can only understand the exorbitant prices for precious metal / stone watches .. but the rest, beats me. Please educate.

[CPTL]

That's an interesting question, and one that all of us here, as watch enthusiasts, try not to think about too hard (because why pay $5k for a Rolex when you can get the same functionality in a $150 Seiko??).

In terms of functionality, durability, and value of materials, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a lower end automatic and an Omega or Rolex. There is almost no difference between a Rolex and an Omega, specifically, but the Rolex cost is 3x that of an Omega.

For Rolex, you're paying for 80 years of in-house engineering. Rolex invented the waterproof, automatic sports watch, and they've been making it basically the same way for 60+ years. Rolex is copied by every other watchmaker, excepting only the most exclusive brands. The brand is recognized throughout the world as the "best" in terms of quality, luxury, etc. Plus, they market extensively, and work hard to ensure the Rolex name is associated with the best in sports, celebrity, etc. That's what you're paying for in a Rolex.

Patek, Lange, and many others price much higher than Rolex. With these watches, you're looking at multiple complications (additional functions such as a calendar, moon phase, power reserve, etc) which add complexity to the movement. All are hand-finished, if not completely hand-made. Finally, these ultra-high-end models have an exclusivity that at least partially justifies the much higher prices. For these, you're looking at prices from $10k to $1mil.

With any luxury brand, beginning with Omega, including Rolex, and going through the full spectrum of AP, PP, Lange, Blancpain, Zenith, etc. you're getting precision and quality. Look at the dials, bracelets, crowns, cases, etc. and you'll be very hard pressed to find a flaw. The bracelets are precisely engineered so that the parts fit exactly with the other parts. The second-hands sweep precisely and evenly, and the dates will pop at precisely midnight (just for some small examples). Achieving such precise manufacturing standards requires extensive tooling, inspection, adjustment, etc.

These are the primary details that separate the high-end brands from a Seiko or a Citizen. You'll not likely find the same level of quality with a Seiko or Citizen, though they are well made. Also, Rolex (as with most of the "best" brands) only makes automatic pieces, where Seiko and Citizen make only a few automatics.

Swiss manufacture is also a discriminating factor. Swiss movements are considered the gold standard of watchmaking. That doesn't mean they are the only good watches, because there are great German, US, and other manufacturers that make great automatics. But, watchmaking is primarily a Swiss tradition, so Swiss are considered the best.

Your question really requires years of thought and experience with watches to fully understand. One of our members has a line in his signature: "Either you get it or you don't, and if you have to ask, then you don't." That's a kind of creed among the folks who spend time on this forum because we love fine mechanical watches. While we understand that you can tell better time with a Casio digital, there's just something about a Rolex that defies strict quantitative logic.

[Bisquitlips]

Originally Posted by CPTL

That's an interesting question, and one that all of us here, as watch enthusiasts, try not to think about too hard (because why pay $5k for a Rolex when you can get the same functionality in a $150 Seiko??).

In terms of functionality, durability, and value of materials, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a lower end automatic and an Omega or Rolex. There is almost no difference between a Rolex and an Omega, specifically, but the Rolex cost is 3x that of an Omega.

For Rolex, you're paying for 80 years of in-house engineering. Rolex invented the waterproof, automatic sports watch, and they've been making it basically the same way for 60+ years. Rolex is copied by every other watchmaker, excepting only the most exclusive brands. The brand is recognized throughout the world as the "best" in terms of quality, luxury, etc. Plus, they market extensively, and work hard to ensure the Rolex name is associated with the best in sports, celebrity, etc. That's what you're paying for in a Rolex.

Patek, Lange, and many others price much higher than Rolex. With these watches, you're looking at multiple complications (additional functions such as a calendar, moon phase, power reserve, etc) which add complexity to the movement. All are hand-finished, if not completely hand-made. Finally, these ultra-high-end models have an exclusivity that at least partially justifies the much higher prices. For these, you're looking at prices from $10k to $1mil.

With any luxury brand, beginning with Omega, including Rolex, and going through the full spectrum of AP, PP, Lange, Blancpain, Zenith, etc. you're getting precision and quality. Look at the dials, bracelets, crowns, cases, etc. and you'll be very hard pressed to find a flaw. The bracelets are precisely engineered so that the parts fit exactly with the other parts. The second-hands sweep precisely and evenly, and the dates will pop at precisely midnight (just for some small examples). Achieving such precise manufacturing standards requires extensive tooling, inspection, adjustment, etc.

These are the primary details that separate the high-end brands from a Seiko or a Citizen. You'll not likely find the same level of quality with a Seiko or Citizen, though they are well made. Also, Rolex (as with most of the "best" brands) only makes automatic pieces, where Seiko and Citizen make only a few automatics.

Swiss manufacture is also a discriminating factor. Swiss movements are considered the gold standard of watchmaking. That doesn't mean they are the only good watches, because there are great German, US, and other manufacturers that make great automatics. But, watchmaking is primarily a Swiss tradition, so Swiss are considered the best.

Your question really requires years of thought and experience with watches to fully understand. One of our members has a line in his signature: "Either you get it or you don't, and if you have to ask, then you don't." That's a kind of creed among the folks who spend time on this forum because we love fine mechanical watches. While we understand that you can tell better time with a Casio digital, there's just something about a Rolex that defies strict quantitative logic.

One for the ages! Excellent answer!

[CPTL]

BTW you kind of got beat up on your other thread. Sorry--some folks can be a little harsh on fakes. If you love watches, or just want to learn about them, then stick around--this is the best place on the web to do it, and the folks here are the absolute nicest you'll find.

Welcome!!

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by CPTL

BTW you kind of got beat up on your other thread. Sorry--some folks can be a little harsh on fakes. If you love watches, or just want to learn about them, then stick around--this is the best place on the web to do it, and the folks here are the absolute nicest you'll find.

Welcome!!

Na its cool, I totally understand. I'm addicted to designer shoes and clothes and I don't take it kindly if someone appreciates, stare or compare a fake.

Atleast I can buy a brand new pair of Ferragamos for $925(retail) .... a Rolex is $3500+. Nothing like smell of top quality leather ... it even smells exquisite.

[GinGinD]

Originally Posted by heresiarh

Nothing like smell of top quality leather ... it even smells exquisite.

See there, you already understand. Just take that same general attitude and apply it to watches.
Jeannie

[jdc]

The majority of the higher end watches are automatic mechanical watches as opposed to quartz or battery operated watches.
The cost of the parts to make a watch does not really relate to the final cost, what determines this is desirability, marketing and how exculsive a watch is perceived.
Rolex are tough and well made and rightly have a reputation for longevity. Pateks are well made and finely crafted. A mechanical Seiko has a high reputation. A quartz watch will keep better time.
The market determines the cost of a watch and different companies market accordingly.

[CPTL]

Originally Posted by jdc

The market determines the cost of a watch and different companies market accordingly.

I disagree with this statement--at least the part of me that knows about markets has to disagree.

A market should respond to supply and demand: as demand goes up, the market price will naturally follow until the supply is increased; and, with the increased profitability, additional suppliers will step in to meet the demand, stabilizing the price.

Luxury watches don't work this way. The price is set by the manufacturer, which is followed by loyal consumers until the manufacturer decides to start charging a higher price...then the consumers complain, and eventually become accustomed to the new, higher price, and then the manufacturer decides to raise it again. It makes no sense from a classical "market" perspective.

[jdc]

Originally Posted by CPTL

I disagree with this statement--at least the part of me that knows about markets has to disagree.

A market should respond to supply and demand: as demand goes up, the market price will naturally follow until the supply is increased; and, with the increased profitability, additional suppliers will step in to meet the demand, stabilizing the price.

Luxury watches don't work this way. The price is set by the manufacturer, which is followed by loyal consumers until the manufacturer decides to start charging a higher price...then the consumers complain, and eventually become accustomed to the new, higher price, and then the manufacturer decides to raise it again. It makes no sense from a classical "market" perspective.

Maybe I was using the wrong term, what I was trying to say is that people need watches, makers target consumers at different price levels and for different trends. Consumers will buy what they like, if the cost or product is not right they won't buy. Rolex are no different to any other company, if they don't price right they will come unstuck, consumers will be the judge.

[diablojota]

Originally Posted by CPTL

I disagree with this statement--at least the part of me that knows about markets has to disagree.

A market should respond to supply and demand: as demand goes up, the market price will naturally follow until the supply is increased; and, with the increased profitability, additional suppliers will step in to meet the demand, stabilizing the price.

Luxury watches don't work this way. The price is set by the manufacturer, which is followed by loyal consumers until the manufacturer decides to start charging a higher price...then the consumers complain, and eventually become accustomed to the new, higher price, and then the manufacturer decides to raise it again. It makes no sense from a classical "market" perspective.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, there is still a supply/demand threshold that even the luxury brands will reach. And it all depends on the buyer as well. For me, I bought my first Rolex (SS Sub Date) new from an AD for 3800. Now with the prices above 5k, I would not consider purchasing one new from the AD. I feel that this has now pushed past my threshold. I don't think I'm alone as of late with the price increases. I would suspect that under the head of a new CEO, the price increases will slow down a bit, or we can only hope. Luxury goods rarely have the same classic economic supply/demand curve, but they do still have them at some point. The question is whether or not Rolex has hit that as of yet, especially with the current economic conditions.

[heresiarh]

Well, actually I wasn't debating the fact if I should get a high end watch or not. I actually dream of Patek day and night. I just want to own one but can't afford it yet. Patek is more of my taste than Rolex or Omega. I adore pencil thin watches with super simple dials. None of that complicated stuff, although I ordered a cheap Seiko chrono for everyday use, but thats really rough use.

Ok so you are saying swiss movements are considered the best, then what about swatches? How is their quality?

The one and only rolex I absolutely adore is the Daytona Stainless Steel one with black dial. I think that runs between 8k-10K which yet again is out of my price range. I can only go uptil $1500 and after that I start panting, sweating, losing my breath and what not:) At the moment I'm saving up for a Tag Carerra, and after that I'll start saving for a Daytone, and as for a platinum Patek, I can keep on dreaming ... atleast for now:)

[jdc]

Originally Posted by heresiarh

Well, actually I wasn't debating the fact if I should get a high end watch or not. I actually dream of Patek day and night. I just want to own one but can't afford it yet. Patek is more of my taste than Rolex or Omega. I adore pencil thin watches with super simple dials. None of that complicated stuff, although I ordered a cheap Seiko chrono for everyday use, but thats really rough use.

Ok so you are saying swiss movements are considered the best, then what about swatches? How is their quality?

The one and only rolex I absolutely adore is the Daytona Stainless Steel one with black dial. I think that runs between 8k-10K which yet again is out of my price range. I can only go uptil $1500 and after that I start panting, sweating, losing my breath and what not:) At the moment I'm saving up for a Tag Carerra, and after that I'll start saving for a Daytone, and as for a platinum Patek, I can keep on dreaming ... atleast for now:)

How about this JLC ultrathin? More than $1500 but less than a Daytona and am sure a second hand one could be picked up reasonably
http://www.thepurists.com/watch/feat...chw/index.html

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by jdc

How about this JLC ultrathin? More than $1500 but less than a Daytona and am sure a second hand one could be picked up reasonably
http://www.thepurists.com/watch/feat...chw/index.html

oh wow, i love it. where can i find these in person so i can try it on??

[unclesallie]

Originally Posted by jdc

How about this JLC ultrathin? More than $1500 but less than a Daytona and am sure a second hand one could be picked up reasonably
http://www.thepurists.com/watch/feat...chw/index.html

Martin: that is one BEAUTIFUL watch. However, I hope it works better than my grandfather's old Atmos. It's never worked right. It runs on changes in the atmososphere(hence, 'atmos'), and the movement is powered by a single thread of extremely thin, but very strong metal(I think tungsten, but not sure)

[Tools]

I don't know..............


Why does it cost a Quarter Of A Million Bucks for a basic Ferrari, but you can get a Hyundai for 9 grand...........

[Rebel]

CPTL.......great answer. I enjoyed reading your explanation.

[Cato]

When you buy a high end watch, you aren't buying craftsmanship nor function. You are buying the intangible: spirit, brand image, etc. Mind you, they are very beautiful pieces of handiwork. However, you can find a more accurate and more durable watch at the dime store for $10. For $100, you can go to Walmart and get an atomically set, nearly water proof watch that will provide many more complications than the most expensive Patek. And when you buy all gold or platinum, you are increasing that spirit (and price) exponentially! But why do we buy diamonds for thousands, even millions when all it is is a pebble? High end watches are status symbols.

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by Cato

When you buy a high end watch, you aren't buying craftsmanship nor function. You are buying the intangible: spirit, brand image, etc. Mind you, they are very beautiful pieces of handiwork. However, you can find a more accurate and more durable watch at the dime store for $10. For $100, you can go to Walmart and get an atomically set, nearly water proof watch that will provide many more complications than the most expensive Patek. And when you buy all gold or platinum, you are increasing that spirit (and price) exponentially! But why do we buy diamonds for thousands, even millions when all it is is a pebble? High end watches are status symbols.

I agree to your status symbol point to a degree, however I don't think its entirely true. You are also paying for craftmanship and quality.

I own 100 pair of Bally shoes and about 60 pair of Ferragamo shoes. In total I own about 170 shoes, and the remaining 10 pairs are regular chinese made leather shoes ... and I can clearly state the difference in leather, craftmanship, build and quality. High end shoes have absolutely fantastic leather quality, and they last me a very very very very long time .. So i think same goes for watches too, and other high end stuff.

What is the difference between a Bally shoe and Kenneth Cole shoe? Well, the leather itself, the scribe construction on bally shoes, the stitches, the highend insoles and soles, and overall quality and feel. Kenneth Cole shoes are plain out trash ..

Ok before anyone makes fun of my shoe collection; yes i'm addicted to shoes and leather goods in general ... I'm slowly getting into collecting watches, and I'm slowly understanding the different between a Seiko watch and Fossil watch, a Seiko watch an a Tag watch, a Tag watch and a Rolex watch ... So far I've only been able to reach as far as a Seiko.

[CharlieG]

Originally Posted by heresiarh

I agree to your status symbol point to a degree, however I don't think its entirely true. You are also paying for craftmanship and quality.

I own 100 pair of Bally shoes and about 60 pair of Ferragamo shoes. In total I own about 170 shoes, and the remaining 10 pairs are regular chinese made leather shoes ... and I can clearly state the difference in leather, craftmanship, build and quality. High end shoes have absolutely fantastic leather quality, and they last me a very very very very long time .. So i think same goes for watches too, and other high end stuff.

What is the difference between a Bally shoe and Kenneth Cole shoe? Well, the leather itself, the scribe construction on bally shoes, the stitches, the highend insoles and soles, and overall quality and feel. Kenneth Cole shoes are plain out trash ..

Ok before anyone makes fun of my shoe collection; yes i'm addicted to shoes and leather goods in general ... I'm slowly getting into collecting watches, and I'm slowly understanding the different between a Seiko watch and Fossil watch, a Seiko watch an a Tag watch, a Tag watch and a Rolex watch ... So far I've only been able to reach as far as a Seiko.

Sorry but I'm confused You have 170 pairs of high end shoes, lets average $400 pair thats 68K and you have only been able to reach as far as a seiko?

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by CharlieG

Sorry but I'm confused You have 170 pairs of high end shoes, lets average $400 pair thats 68K and you have only been able to reach as far as a seiko?

170 pairs over 7 years. And as for getting as far as seiko, just a couple months ago I started looking into quality watches. now since feb 2008 i haven't been able to do any high end shopping due to job insecurity and economic conditions. but i will definitely get a tag in the next couple of months, and next up is a rolex.

[redshirt1957]

Originally Posted by heresiarh

170 pairs over 7 years. And as for getting as far as seiko, just a couple months ago I started looking into quality watches. now since feb 2008 i haven't been able to do any high end shopping due to job insecurity and economic conditions. but i will definitely get a tag in the next couple of months, and next up is a rolex.

Bag the tag, and wait for the Rolex!

[diablojota]

Sell some of those pairs of shoes and you shouldn't have a problem paying for a Rolex! :-)

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by diablojota

Sell some of those pairs of shoes and you shouldn't have a problem paying for a Rolex! :-)

That is what my wife suggests, but I will not give in. I love my shoes ...

[Goodwatch]

The question is a universal one and can be applied to almost all objects that are available in a broad range of both price and quality. One can jot down a note with a 50 cent Biro or a $500 fountain pen. The result is the same: a note. One can listen to music on a $89 boom box or on a (yes, they exists) $890,000 high-end set. It is the recipient that decides if he or she is happy with the result.

I own a 18.99 Euro time signal receiver watch that keeps PERFECT time. It adjusts for DST automatically and is waterproof to 5 BAR. And completely in stainless steel. They are churned out by the thousands a day in some Far Eastern factory. They are perfect for their main job: telling time.

To most of my colleagues this is a more than adequate watch, they think it is the 'non plus ultra' in watch design. It is practical and inexpensive. To me it is an emotionless product of our hyper-technical society.

Seiko make mechanical watches that have movements that can easily match Rolex's offerings, the Grand Seiko line. They are in the same price range as well. But I think the average punter will go for a Rolex, mainly because of the brand name.

I will not entertain a discussion on whether Rolex or other above average watches are worth the money or what brand is the best. And with the exception of those completely hand-made uber complications, most high-end watches represent a dream. But it is all right to dream, this gives us the ability to escape the toil of everyday life.

[redshirt1957]

I, of course, equate such thoughts with women; so I have always gone top shelf, and I must say worth every damn penny. Now, pennies is all I have left.

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by redshirt1957

I, of course, equate such thoughts with women; so I have always gone top shelf, and I must say worth every damn penny. Now, pennies is all I have left.

HAHA, I truly understand what you mean. I'm fixing up pennies to get to a Rolex ...

[Lion]

Well, everyones priorities are different and that's what makes us individuals. But I do agree with Joe, why buy a Tag when shortly you will want a Rolex!!!

[heresiarh]

Originally Posted by Lion

Well, everyones priorities are different and that's what makes us individuals. But I do agree with Joe, why buy a Tag when shortly you will want a Rolex!!!

Well, I actually like the Tags a lot .. but I understand your point. Right now I'm a few months away from getting a Tag, when the time comes, I will rethink if I should get a Tag first of Rolex ... but the rolex i want is a basic submariner, no gold or anything. How much do you think I can get it for?

[Lion]

Many factors come into play, depends on the state of our economy, the AD you go to and whether the AD has one to sell(among others). You can also check into grey dealers as well for their pricing. I believe you can get a deal of 15% to 20% off retail from any type of dealer!!!

[tifosi]

Skip the TAG and buy the Rolex. Save the time and money. Once you get the Rolex, you will forget that your TAG even exists...I know I have.