Advice on a 6605 with Japanese President Bracelet?

[dadeln]

Hi guys!

I’m new to the forum and so far I only own a simple but fine black dial datejust from -91 and an omega constellation from the 60s. My enthusiasm for watches has grown since my first Rolex purchase and so I’m now settled on, and excited about, the idea of acquiring my own collection.

I have been looking in to this old 6605 (1958) with a Japanese made rolex president bracelet. I love how the watch looks, the 50s aesthetics is very appealing to me. I have tried to google about this reference but it seems hard to find much info about it, especially the ones with the Japanese bracelet. I also don’t recognize this color on the dial? It seems that it could be either white or champagne, with patina? Since I’m new to the forum I can only post one picture and no links, unfortunately.

So I wonder if there are people here that could enlighten me about the pros and cons of this ref.. it’s perceived value in the community etc?

The dealer has set the price: Euro 8999. Even though I’m not looking at watch purchases as investments, I still want to pay a reasonable price for my watches, as with any purchase, and I have had a hard time finding sales history of this reference so I’m not really sure if the dealer has put a reasonable price on this piece. Would appreciate some input here.

Glad to be part of the forum and appreciate any input!


Best,
Daniel


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[Vlad]

let's start with "we should not discuss prices on this forum". Having said that, knowing that 6605 with a pres bad has about 130+ grams of 18K, you do your own calculations.

I like 6605 - 1030 cal movement is a workhorse! design is similar to modern watches. So you get a great movement and a modern design.

As far as bands, they were made all over the world - Mexico, Japan, Argentina, England, USA, Switzerland, etc. To me it's a PLUS that it's not a Swiss band

Vlad

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by Vlad

let's start with "we should not discuss prices on this forum". Having said that, knowing that 6605 with a pres bad has about 130+ grams of 18K, you do your own calculations.

I like 6605 - 1030 cal movement is a workhorse! design is similar to modern watches. So you get a great movement and a modern design.

As far as bands, they were made all over the world - Mexico, Japan, Argentina, England, USA, Switzerland, etc. To me it's a PLUS that it's not a Swiss band

Vlad

Thanks for your response Vlad, and I appreciate the heads up regarding not discussing prices, I didn’t know that.

The watch I’m looking at has a 1065 movement. Is it similar to the 1033 you’re talking about? I noticed on a video the dealer sent me that the seconds hand move less smoothly compared to my 90s datejust, I assume that’s because the 6605 has a much older movement?

Best,
Daniel


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[motoikkyu]

One thing to be very aware of with the 6605 is that the dials did not have good longevity. So, it's entirely possible that an odd dial color is a repaint. That only matters for collector value, if you like it, that's fine for you. I wear a 6605 with a repainted dial sometimes, I had the dial painted myself because the re-paint that came with the watch wasn't attractive. I THINK my 6605 stainless is original dial, the 18k is the one I had painted.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by motoikkyu

One thing to be very aware of with the 6605 is that the dials did not have good longevity. So, it's entirely possible that an odd dial color is a repaint. That only matters for collector value, if you like it, that's fine for you. I wear a 6605 with a repainted dial sometimes, I had the dial painted myself because the re-paint that came with the watch wasn't attractive. I THINK my 6605 stainless is original dial, the 18k is the one I had painted.

Second is refinished as well. Lack of Swiss at the bottom, text is off as well as Lume plots.

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by motoikkyu

One thing to be very aware of with the 6605 is that the dials did not have good longevity. So, it's entirely possible that an odd dial color is a repaint. That only matters for collector value, if you like it, that's fine for you. I wear a 6605 with a repainted dial sometimes, I had the dial painted myself because the re-paint that came with the watch wasn't attractive. I THINK my 6605 stainless is original dial, the 18k is the one I had painted.

Thanks for your input! To my untrained eyes the dial on the watch I’m looking at looks original and not repainted. The patina seems authentic to the era of production year, but I could be wrong. Unfortunately I cannot post pictures on this forum yet but I will do that as soon as I am able to.

Best,
Daniel


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[dadeln]

Originally Posted by motoikkyu

One thing to be very aware of with the 6605 is that the dials did not have good longevity. So, it's entirely possible that an odd dial color is a repaint. That only matters for collector value, if you like it, that's fine for you. I wear a 6605 with a repainted dial sometimes, I had the dial painted myself because the re-paint that came with the watch wasn't attractive. I THINK my 6605 stainless is original dial, the 18k is the one I had painted.

Love that 18k 6605 btw


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[motoikkyu]

As 330ci pointed out, my ss 6605 also has repainted dial, complete with patina. I love the 6605s.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by motoikkyu

As 330ci pointed out, my ss 6605 also has repainted dial, complete with patina. I love the 6605s.

Been looking for a nice one for myself for quite a while. They 50s watches just have an amazing charm to them IMO. So many advancements made in design and movement tech over those 10 years

[dadeln]

Yes! They have a less stringent aesthetic design compared to later models, which I like a lot. I also love the arrow head indices that some of the 6605s have.

Since you own two of them already, you might be able to enlighten me about the serviceability of these. Is it hard to find parts or will most ADs have it covered?

Best,
Daniel


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[CaveDweller]

Without pictures, this is just a guess, but the dial on the one you are looking at should be a light cream colour like the one on my avatar. Some call it champagne, but I find that description covers a whole range of colours. As motoikkyu is kind enough to point out, many of these dials have been refinished, which is fine as long as it has been done well.

Again, the bracelet in its current (Japanese) state will be an improvement over the European original (IMO). A 60 year old gold bracelet is going to be pretty shagged, 18K gold wears relatively quickly. However, this model in particular wears well on a leather band. It makes the watch lighter, and as the 6605 wears thin on the wrist, leather suits the watch

Your 90’s Rolex will be what we refer to as a “high beat” movement (probably a 3135). By increasing the number of beats per second, Rolex hopes to have improved the accuracy. If you hold it up to your ear, you can hear it “sing”. The 1065 is a lower beat movement, and if you listen to it, you will notice a beat difference. Perfectly normal, and both are just as acceptable in terms of accuracy given the year of manufacture

Value – all over the place. Box, papers, dial condition, gold bracelet – all have a part to play in this. The other factor, is who is selling. Many greedy people out there with nothing but time on their hands (pun intended). Misleading descriptions abound, saying they are “mint” when they are obviously not, dials you wouldn’t wipe your dogs nose with – it’s a minefield

So it all comes down to seeing the watch in question. Pics when you can please ……

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by CaveDweller

Without pictures, this is just a guess, but the dial on the one you are looking at should be a light cream colour like the one on my avatar. Some call it champagne, but I find that description covers a whole range of colours. As motoikkyu is kind enough to point out, many of these dials have been refinished, which is fine as long as it has been done well.

Again, the bracelet in its current (Japanese) state will be an improvement over the European original (IMO). A 60 year old gold bracelet is going to be pretty shagged, 18K gold wears relatively quickly. However, this model in particular wears well on a leather band. It makes the watch lighter, and as the 6605 wears thin on the wrist, leather suits the watch

Your 90’s Rolex will be what we refer to as a “high beat” movement (probably a 3135). By increasing the number of beats per second, Rolex hopes to have improved the accuracy. If you hold it up to your ear, you can hear it “sing”. The 1065 is a lower beat movement, and if you listen to it, you will notice a beat difference. Perfectly normal, and both are just as acceptable in terms of accuracy given the year of manufacture

Value – all over the place. Box, papers, dial condition, gold bracelet – all have a part to play in this. The other factor, is who is selling. Many greedy people out there with nothing but time on their hands (pun intended). Misleading descriptions abound, saying they are “mint” when they are obviously not, dials you wouldn’t wipe your dogs nose with – it’s a minefield

So it all comes down to seeing the watch in question. Pics when you can please ……

Thanks a lot for all this info! Very much appreciated. I will post pictures asap.


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[dadeln]

Ok here is the watch I’m looking at.




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[dadeln]

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[dadeln]

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[330ci]

I’d say that’s a pretty awesome piece. The case is a bit more polished than I’d like to see and the crown isn’t original. But the case could be brushed again and would likely look much better. That dial is as good as they come really. When near perfect they’re pretty crazy money. I’d love to have an example in that condition. I think it’s a fair retail price, obviously the lower the better. Would pair amazingly well with a strap and that bracelet is pretty rare, although not sure how the Japanese bracelets compare price wise, I’d imagine they’d fetch as much as a Swiss bracelet if not a slight premium. I’d be curious to see the clasp markings on it.

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by 330ci

I’d say that’s a pretty awesome piece. The case is a bit more polished than I’d like to see and the crown isn’t original. But the case could be brushed again and would likely look much better. That dial is as good as they come really. When near perfect they’re pretty crazy money. I’d love to have an example in that condition. I think it’s a fair retail price, obviously the lower the better. Would pair amazingly well with a strap and that bracelet is pretty rare, although not sure how the Japanese bracelets compare price wise, I’d imagine they’d fetch as much as a Swiss bracelet if not a slight premium. I’d be curious to see the clasp markings on it.

Thanks for your input! The dealer says in the sale-text that the crown is completely original. What is it that reveals that it’s not?

Best,
Daniel


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[330ci]

Originally Posted by dadeln

Thanks for your input! The dealer says in the sale-text that the crown is completely original. What is it that reveals that it’s not?

Best,
Daniel


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It is authentic, but the original one would have had different markings. Can’t remember exactly what one but likely a Brevet + one.

As for swapping the dial to black, maybe keep the original and find one in worst shape to restore. This one is rather attractive imo. I’d certainly take it over a refinished one

[CaveDweller]

Hmmm – not the worst I’ve seen, and not the best (original untouched dial) either. The bracelet looks excellent, so let’s concentrate on the watch head

Firstly, it’s polished to within an inch of its life, but after 60 years, that’s fairly typical. On my watch, the front is brushed, on yours it’s polished, which to my mind goes with the nature of the bracelet. Lugs are strong enough, back seal area appears clean, so the case has been off and given the once over

The problem now becomes (and this is only my opinion), the internals. For a watch case and bracelet that shiny, the dial becomes the weak point. The roulette date wheel is in bad shape, but that can be replaced easily enough. To refinish the dial, costs, I have no idea, sorry, but a good job is unlikely to be cheap. The hands may or may not be original. There’s a slight variation in shape. Reference motoikkyu’s which match mine, then look again at yours

The movement – and this may just be the camera angle – looks “oxidised” somehow. Look at the polished surfaces of the screw heads, then compare that to the rotor and plate surfaces. I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but it would be remiss of me not to mention it. I’d want more photographs specifically of the movement if it was me

Ongoing maintenance: 1065 parts are getting hard to find, and although a well networked independent should just about get you through, it’s important to start out with the best condition movement you can find. This in turn, leads back to the dial condition, specifically the outer lume dots, which are deteriorating. Every time one of those crumbles and finds its way into the movement, it can be problematic. And they are crumbling. Badly.

So – because of the mismatch between the case/bracelet and dial/movement, you have a problem, and it’s one I do not envy you. To buy this watch in its present condition, and then spending up to 2k getting it redialled, the movement cleaned up etc, you would then have one of the nicest watches of this type imaginable, albeit redialled. And for the costs involved, yes, it’s probably worth doing financially. But it depends on how you feel about that

The alternative is take it and wear it as it stands, thinking all the while of what I’ve said, and eventually consign it to the bottom of a drawer somewhere. The outside simply doesn’t match the inside. New, that would be a stunning Rolex, so now you have to decide what you want to do

Price wise, as above. Head only I’ve seen worse for around 5k Euro. With bracelet, maybe up to 8k (and as low as 6k), so the price is about right as it stands, but the seller is doing you no favours. The problem with prices, is what is asked for, and what is actually achieved. The one truth the sellers decline to mention

All of the above is just the opinion of one man, but in the world of vintage, all we have are opinions …..

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by CaveDweller

Hmmm – not the worst I’ve seen, and not the best (original untouched dial) either. The bracelet looks excellent, so let’s concentrate on the watch head

Firstly, it’s polished to within an inch of its life, but after 60 years, that’s fairly typical. On my watch, the front is brushed, on yours it’s polished, which to my mind goes with the nature of the bracelet. Lugs are strong enough, back seal area appears clean, so the case has been off and given the once over

The problem now becomes (and this is only my opinion), the internals. For a watch case and bracelet that shiny, the dial becomes the weak point. The roulette date wheel is in bad shape, but that can be replaced easily enough. To refinish the dial, costs, I have no idea, sorry, but a good job is unlikely to be cheap. The hands may or may not be original. There’s a slight variation in shape. Reference motoikkyu’s which match mine, then look again at yours

The movement – and this may just be the camera angle – looks “oxidised” somehow. Look at the polished surfaces of the screw heads, then compare that to the rotor and plate surfaces. I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but it would be remiss of me not to mention it. I’d want more photographs specifically of the movement if it was me

Ongoing maintenance: 1065 parts are getting hard to find, and although a well networked independent should just about get you through, it’s important to start out with the best condition movement you can find. This in turn, leads back to the dial condition, specifically the outer lume dots, which are deteriorating. Every time one of those crumbles and finds its way into the movement, it can be problematic. And they are crumbling. Badly.

So – because of the mismatch between the case/bracelet and dial/movement, you have a problem, and it’s one I do not envy you. To buy this watch in its present condition, and then spending up to 2k getting it redialled, the movement cleaned up etc, you would then have one of the nicest watches of this type imaginable, albeit redialled. And for the costs involved, yes, it’s probably worth doing financially. But it depends on how you feel about that

The alternative is take it and wear it as it stands, thinking all the while of what I’ve said, and eventually consign it to the bottom of a drawer somewhere. The outside simply doesn’t match the inside. New, that would be a stunning Rolex, so now you have to decide what you want to do

Price wise, as above. Head only I’ve seen worse for around 5k Euro. With bracelet, maybe up to 8k (and as low as 6k), so the price is about right as it stands, but the seller is doing you no favours. The problem with prices, is what is asked for, and what is actually achieved. The one truth the sellers decline to mention

All of the above is just the opinion of one man, but in the world of vintage, all we have are opinions …..

Wow, thanks for all of that. I’m constantly learning new things:)

A question regarding an eventual refinish. I’ve seen these watches with a black dial a few times.. in my opinion that is a very cool look. If I were to refinish in that black color instead of the color original to the actual watch, would that be a terrible idea?

Best,
Daniel


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[CaveDweller]

Hey, you buy it, you decide what happens to it, and yes, it would look good in black – but ……

(And again, this is just my opinion), when you take on a vintage watch, you become a curator of its history. To return such a watch to its original state to the best of your ability is commendable, to change it is a shame somehow

My other Rolex which I have had since new in 1988 is a DJ 16030/3035, black dial. I would change the dial on that one without any concern, and there are many options to do so. So why does changing the dial colour on a 6605 matter. Firstly (to me), that the watch has even survived all these years is worthy of respect. There are no records of what colour dial my 6605 came with, no one would ever know – but I would. When we seek to change history, we lose the value of that history, even if it’s “only a watch”. Sentimental perhaps, but there are so few of these 6605’s left, they are what they are. We improve them (cosmetically), we work on them, we wear them. But we don’t “change” them from how they came from the factory 60 or so years ago

On a date-just, go ahead, break a leg – but on a 6605 that is becoming rarer with each passing year – no. I’m no purist, no collector of patina, but that’s where I draw the line

Again, the above is an opinion only, make of it what you will – but in all honesty, that’s the way I feel about it

Check out the early turn-o-graphs, there are some nice examples of black dials on those puppies. If you could find your way to possessing both the turn-o-graph and the 6605, then you will have two very original watches

But if you change the dial colour on that 6605, is it “original” anymore ?

Sometimes it's the small things that count ……

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by CaveDweller

Hey, you buy it, you decide what happens to it, and yes, it would look good in black – but ……

(And again, this is just my opinion), when you take on a vintage watch, you become a curator of its history. To return such a watch to its original state to the best of your ability is commendable, to change it is a shame somehow

My other Rolex which I have had since new in 1988 is a DJ 16030/3035, black dial. I would change the dial on that one without any concern, and there are many options to do so. So why does changing the dial colour on a 6605 matter. Firstly (to me), that the watch has even survived all these years is worthy of respect. There are no records of what colour dial my 6605 came with, no one would ever know – but I would. When we seek to change history, we lose the value of that history, even if it’s “only a watch”. Sentimental perhaps, but there are so few of these 6605’s left, they are what they are. We improve them (cosmetically), we work on them, we wear them. But we don’t “change” them from how they came from the factory 60 or so years ago

On a date-just, go ahead, break a leg – but on a 6605 that is becoming rarer with each passing year – no. I’m no purist, no collector of patina, but that’s where I draw the line

Again, the above is an opinion only, make of it what you will – but in all honesty, that’s the way I feel about it

Check out the early turn-o-graphs, there are some nice examples of black dials on those puppies. If you could find your way to possessing both the turn-o-graph and the 6605, then you will have two very original watches

But if you change the dial colour on that 6605, is it “original” anymore ?

Sometimes it's the small things that count ……

I hear you.. and agree. I’m a musician and have been collecting vintage guitars and synths for a while and the history of the instruments is very important. At the same time, the functionality is paramount since I use them for my work. So sometimes I have to change certain parts etc.

I guess my best option would be to use the original until I find a black dial from the same era that is correct to the reference, and then switch it out and preserve the original.


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[Dan S]

I'm just going to say it ... that watch is in below average condition in all respects. Badly overpolished case, corroded and scratched-up movement, and damaged dial. It would not be appealing to me, and not even a good starting point for a restoration project since no part of the watch is in good condition. It's a total no-go for me.

[dadeln]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I'm just going to say it ... that watch is in below average condition in all respects. Badly overpolished case, corroded and scratched-up movement, and damaged dial. It would not be appealing to me, and not even a good starting point for a restoration project since no part of the watch is in good condition. It's a total no-go for me.

Thanks for your input! I personally like the looks of the dial but I am a little worried about the movement as you guys have pointed out that it looks corroded. Will have to think about it a little more.

Best,
Daniel


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[Dan S]

Originally Posted by dadeln

Thanks for your input! I personally like the looks of the dial but I am a little worried about the movement as you guys have pointed out that it looks corroded. Will have to think about it a little more.

It's good if you like the dial, but the condition of the dial has a HUGE impact on value of a vintage watch. It's important to keep that in mind when thinking about the price.

[dadeln]

Here are some pics on the clasp. Does this look correct for a japanese bracelet?



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