How to stop the flipping scourge

[teck21]

It is a problem. Everybody knows that.

There’s no blame to be assigned for doing it because that’s just rational human behaviour, the chance for a quick buck.

But every watch that gets taken away from an AD purely for the sole purpose of selling again without adding value deprives another genuine customer of a chance of it from an AD, that is also surely not in doubt.

What is it you think Rolex and/or ADs can do, in conjunction or not, to ensure as few watches as possible go to these opportunistic scalpers?

As it stands, Rolex tries to ‘dissuade’ its ADs from funnelling directly to greys (via the threat of dealership revocation), and to individual flippers (via black listing of individuals).

This discussion is not about Rolex increasing supply to resolve the demand issues, or demand supply issues in general, such as whether demand is ‘real or fake’.

The market situation is what it is, littered with opportunities for scalpers to profit.

In this light, what else can, or should Rolex/ ADs do?

Curious as to people’s views.

Mine are straightforward. Make sure everybody pays ‘market’ price via relationship building/bundling (even though Rolex frowns on outright binding), but I understand that’s not a popular view, and it also has its drawbacks.

What solutions would some of you propose?

Edit:
For the purpose of this particular discussion, flipping refers to the buying of a popular reference at an AD with little or no intention of being the end user, but for monetary profit.


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[peterpl]

You cant.

When it comes to $$$$$ people will do anything to make a buck.

Money is very very very powerful whether you like it or not and when it comes to $$$ well it makes ppl do crazy things. Flipping watches is nothing.

Thats facts!

[teck21]

Originally Posted by peterpl

You cant.

When it comes to $$$$$ people will do anything to make a buck.

Money is very very very powerful whether you like it or not and when it comes to $$$ well it makes ppl do crazy things. Flipping watches is nothing.

Thats facts!

I agree almost entirely, it is a given that elimination is impossible, but would there be anything else they could do to reduce the opportunities for flippers?

I’ve thought about it, and short of forcing everyone to pay market price, one way or another, I cannot see another other solution.

As you said, human ingenuity knows no bounds when there’s a chance to make money.

As the saying goes, show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.

I’m proposing removing the incentive.


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[beshannon]

Originally Posted by teck21

I’m proposing removing the incentive.

Why?

Why does it bother you what someone else does?

[charlesheung]

It’s pretty simple, just give a reason why do u think u can stop people for making money.

[mooty]

it is very hard to stop.
if I offered you $100k on a new 116500LN, are you really going to turn me down?
how about $60k for a pepsi?
of course I am using some extremely numbers but EVERYTHING has a price, no one can stop "flipping"


I am NOT happy with that either. but I just don't think it can be stopped.

[KathleenL]

Thank goodness I have the one and only Rolex that I want. I cannot "build a relationship" with an AD by buying a bunch of jewelry from him/her because my brother-in-law is a Certified Master Bench Jeweler. (He's independent - doesn't work for any particular jewelry store.) Any gold or diamond jewelry that I want (and I have wanted a lot) is custom made for me. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten the exact watch that I wanted, but I guess Lady Datejust watches aren't in great demand.

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by KathleenL

Thank goodness I have the one and only Rolex that I want. I cannot "build a relationship" with an AD by buying a bunch of jewelry from him/her because my brother-in-law is a Certified Master Bench Jeweler. (He's independent - doesn't work for any particular jewelry store.) Any gold or diamond jewelry that I want (and I have wanted a lot) is custom made for me. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten the exact watch that I wanted, but I guess Lady Datejust watches aren't in great demand.

I'm in a similar situation. My wife and I have a diamond broker in Chicago that we have worked with since 2004. She's incredible. She custom makes pieces for us, anything we want. I only pay the spot price for the metal, wholesale cost for any stones, and then I just pay her for her time. I can show her anything and she will make it for us. The mark up on jewelry is absolutely unbelievable.

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[seand442]

I’m no longer buying the bit about Rolex being against flipping and selling to greys. They are more than enough ways they could have done something, but they haven’t. They've stuck to their demand issue comment and that is all well and good, but when you can’t find a single SS watch over a vast area, ie. statewide, you start to figure out they don’t really care after all.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by seand442

I’m no longer buying the bit about Rolex being against flipping and selling to greys. They are more than enough ways they could have done something, but they haven’t. They've stuck to their demand issue comment and that is all well and good, but when you can’t find a single SS watch over a vast area, ie. statewide, you start to figure out they don’t really care after all.

You could read it that way. I see it as being illustrative of the incredible demand supply imbalance at ADs, compounded by flippers.

Anyway this discussion presupposes that Rolex does indeed care and is trying.

Question would be what else they can do besides what they already are doing.


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[seand442]

And that’s exactly it. What is Rolex really doing about, not just what they put out in a PR release. This hasn’t been a recent issue for them. If the majority of their displays are empty or only have 2 or 3 unpopular models, which based on personal experience as well as stories of others who have visited, seems to be the case, where is the inventory? If an AD has already sold it, that’s on them. They chose to sell to a known customer or flipper before the watch could be put in a case. Known customer, fine, but they can sell multiple pieces to a grey/flipper, make their money, and then tell the regular Joe who walks in later how it’s a demand issue and he’ll put him on the “list.” When you see multiple IG pages with many multiple brand new popular models, I don’t see it as a demand issue. It’s simply a greed issue. But hey, that’s capitalism.

Originally Posted by teck21

You could read it that way. I see it as being illustrative of the incredible demand supply imbalance at ADs, compounded by flippers.
Anyway this discussion presupposes that Rolex does indeed care and is trying.
Question would be what else they can do besides what they already are doing.
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[Timetracker]

Originally Posted by teck21

You could read it that way. I see it as being illustrative of the incredible demand supply imbalance at ADs, compounded by flippers.

Anyway this discussion presupposes that Rolex does indeed care and is trying.

Question would be what else they can do besides what they already are doing.


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But they really don’t, and so they’re not……

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by Timetracker

But they really don’t, and so they’re not……

But they are. They've been doing serial number tracing for over a year now. It has been written about in multiple watch magazines and journals over the last year.

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[Timetracker]

Originally Posted by Mendota

But they are. They've been doing serial number tracing for over a year now. It has been written about in multiple watch magazines and journals over the last year.

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Lip service and window dressing imo. Giving the appearance of caring.

Look, let’s rejoin the real world……. Once a mfr is paid for items they produce, especially something like a high end watch……..they really don’t give a rats arse what happens next.

[mml4]

Originally Posted by seand442

I’m no longer buying the bit about Rolex being against flipping and selling to greys. They are more than enough ways they could have done something, but they haven’t. They've stuck to their demand issue comment and that is all well and good, but when you can’t find a single SS watch over a vast area, ie. statewide, you start to figure out they don’t really care after all.

Precisely-Flipping is their business model!

[RolexSimon]

Originally Posted by mml4

Precisely-Flipping is their business model!

No evidence for this unfortunately.

[copperjohn]

When people buy it they own it. And then they can sell it. This ain’t about the flippers. Flipping is different. It’s about people that use Rolex as an investment.

Some people want to own a BLRO. And some want to buy it at the AD for $9500 and sell it for $22,000. It’s the nature of the beast. Can it be stopped? It can be by you as an individual who opts to not buy from them. But some will buy if they get a price they like. Again, nature of the beast.

But a global protocol to prevent it? No.

[Danny83]

This wont stop until Rolex supplies their Authorized with enough watches to fill the display. Rolex did this to themselves. Ads dont want you to flip but at the same time most of them will make you bundle, so theoretically they condone flipping. Then if there is too much supply deep discounts happen so thats over with.

[jwrichter]

Originally Posted by Danny83

This wont stop until Rolex supplies their Authorized with enough watches to fill the display. Rolex did this to themselves. Ads dont want you to flip but at the same time most of them will make you bundle, so theoretically they condone flipping. Then if there is too much supply deep discounts happen so thats over with.

Rolex isn't responsible for the inability to produce as before Covid, thank the Chinese.

[tmilnthorp]

I would

1. Set a "minimum retail price" (perhaps equal to the current "suggested retail price")
2. Allow ADs to charge market price

ADs could then chose to charge anywhere between minimum and market price depending on customer relationship, etc.

Just cut out the middle-man. Why let the purchaser and/or greys profit when the AD is the ones doing marketing, customer relations, etc.?

[whattimeyougot]

Originally Posted by tmilnthorp

I would

1. Set a "minimum retail price" (perhaps equal to the current "suggested retail price")
2. Allow ADs to charge market price

ADs could then chose to charge anywhere between minimum and market price depending on customer relationship, etc.

Just cut out the middle-man. Why let the purchaser and/or greys profit when the AD is the ones doing marketing, customer relations, etc.?

Have a different price depending on the customer relationship? Never happening. This is ridiculous and crazy! These are durable mass produced goods.


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[Oystersteel92]

Rolex, at it's heart, is a very conservative company. You can see it in the slow evolution of their designs, which is part of the appeal. The immediate answer when the market price is much higher than the retail price is to raise the retail price. Rolex has made it clear they're not going to increase production in any significant fashion, appear unwilling to significantly raise prices, and it feels like they're trying to wait out the current demand cycle.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by Oystersteel92

Rolex, at it's heart, is a very conservative company. You can see it in the slow evolution of their designs, which is part of the appeal. The immediate answer when the market price is much higher than the retail price is to raise the retail price. Rolex has made it clear they're not going to increase production in any significant fashion, appear unwilling to significantly raise prices, and it feels like they're trying to wait out the current demand cycle.

Most certainly, which is why they are not feeding this frenzy with greater supply.

So it’s currently a flipper’s paradise.

What can they do? The threat of being blacklisted by an AD works for sure, even if there are people who deny that it happens, but it does not seem a sufficient deterrent based on how many bnib are still finding their way to the resale market.

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[cerendigit]

Reduce the demand.


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[Laostuh]

In a perfect world. It would be 1st come 1st serve with spending history not even a question.

High demand watch? Get put on an actual wait list, and when said watch is ready go down the list 1 by 1.

Will it happen? Of course not.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by Laostuh

In a perfect world. It would be 1st come 1st serve with spending history not even a question.

High demand watch? Get put on an actual wait list, and when said watch is ready go down the list 1 by 1.

Will it happen? Of course not.

That’s the worst way to allocate high demand luxury items.

In a first come first serve system, every single watch will go to the profit seekers because they will beat you to the watch every single time.


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[donas]

Originally Posted by cerendigit

Reduce the demand.

This! There are many great brands available, stop feeding the frenzy.

If people are willing to pay ridiculous prices for steel watches, charge that price at the AD; once the top market price is found, flipping for profit will be more difficult, because no one will pay it.

[Tanalasta]

Link the warranty to original owner only.

Mandate the owners name be written onto the warranty card at point of sale. Each AD will usually keep a copy for their own records anyway.

Spot audits
Repurchase of grey market watches to track point of sale and original owner


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by Tanalasta

Link the warranty to original owner only.

Mandate the owners name be written onto the warranty card at point of sale. Each AD will usually keep a copy for their own records anyway.

Spot audits
Repurchase of grey market watches to track point of sale and original owner


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The warranty proposition may take some heat off demand so it probably will help.

Are there legal impediments to implementation?

Would the secondary market simply adapt to being warranty-less?

There is already some element of tracking resale watches and tracing them to individual names.

What you propose is an extension of such action, it may already be happening. We don’t know, but increasing the scope of such activity may help.


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[BNZ]

Originally Posted by Tanalasta

Link the warranty to original owner only.

Mandate the owners name be written onto the warranty card at point of sale. Each AD will usually keep a copy for their own records anyway.

Spot audits
Repurchase of grey market watches to track point of sale and original owner


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That's how Richard Mille does it.