EV versus gasoline powered car fueling expenses

[seabreeze60]

Here’s some interesting detail from the WSJ on the average cost of driving an EV or gas powered car.

One spreadsheet is driving locally under 200 miles a week and charging at home. The second is a 300 mile road trip where you charge at commercial EV facilities.

Bottom line the EV is cheaper if you can change at home. If you need to charge at a commercial charging station the EV is more expensive for fuel costs.

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[bondtoys]

The main reason for driving an EV is not to save money!

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

The main reason for driving an EV is not to save money!

Right..... because we're all saving the world by having cobalt mined by child labor in 3rd world countries to say nothing about the disposal of the battery packs.

Perhaps it wasn't a money saving exercise initially, but it's a major consideration for individuals now. In addition, the bean counters at companies, both big and small are using EVs not only because of the recharging costs vs. fuel expenses, (esp. with gas over $5 per) but the maintenance costs pencils out when oil changes and other components are factored into the equation. The virtue signaling is simply a non-tangible bonus.

[Chester01]

I think they are the future and for typical commuting (under 100 miles each way) clearly the way to go. The range and time to charge are the only things holding it back. But with gas prices what they are, it may be the best gift to EV ever. People are getting tired of the fake scarcity created by the cartels and their greed will be what ends them. We have reached the tipping point with EV already and the stakeholders and players in EV can go for the jugular now. If the cartels were smarter they would keep gas competitive or low enough to reduce the demand on EV and marginalize them as had been done for decades. Too late now.

[Bluside]

I'm convinced my next car will be an EV.

[JasoninDenver]

Hung out with a buddy that has a Tesla here in Colorado this weekend. Charges at home 95% of the time. However, what I did not know is that there are some charging stations that are free up to a certain point. We plugged his into the station outside of a restaurant in Winter Park and went in to listen to a band for a couple of hours. During that time, he loaded up another 50 miles of range for free. Apparently, if you get close to a full charge and leave it there beyond that time, you get dinged pretty heavily.

[tritium8]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

Hung out with a buddy that has a Tesla here in Colorado this weekend. Charges at home 95% of the time. However, what I did not know is that there are some charging stations that are free up to a certain point. We plugged his into the station outside of a restaurant in Winter Park and went in to listen to a band for a couple of hours. During that time, he loaded up another 50 miles of range for free. Apparently, if you get close to a full charge and leave it there beyond that time, you get dinged pretty heavily.

This always cracks me up. We'll go to museums, stay at resorts or airport parking and they charge the car for free. I don't ever remember getting my car filled up with gas at any of these places before.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Bluside

I'm convinced my next car will be an EV.

Same here. I’m currently looking for a Tesla Model 3

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Bluside

I'm convinced my next car will be an EV.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Same here. I’m currently looking for a Tesla Model 3

I ordered a Y back in July. Delivery date keeps getting bumped month after month. Though according to them, I should have it in the next week.

[Zoomerang]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Same here. I’m currently looking for a Tesla Model 3

Expecting my new Model Y performance in January. I just sold my 2019 Model 3 LR!

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Zoomerang

Expecting my new Model Y performance in January. I just sold my 2019 Model 3 LR!

Why didn’t you sell it to me! I’m having a hell of a time finding one for a decent price. We live in the same city, I could have walked to pick it up

[bondtoys]

oh, the old cobalt chestnut….

Maybe you do a little research and find out, that cobalt use is being heavily reduced now and will be zero in the very near future.
And for example BMW sources their Cobalt from Australia and Mexico.

And even if we take this seriously for a moment, the cobalt use in an EV is ONCE , the chemicals that are pumped in our soils for fracking are happening perpetually.

And you have a mobile phone and a computer with a battery. For sure you are concerned about child labour in that regard, or is there only the outrage because you don‘t like EVs?

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

oh, the old cobalt chestnut….

Maybe you do a little research and find out, that cobalt use is being heavily reduced now and will be zero in the very near future.
And for example BMW sources their Cobalt from Australia and Mexico.

And even if we take this seriously for a moment, the cobalt use in an EV is ONCE , the chemicals that are pumped in our soils for fracking are happening perpetually.

And you have a mobile phone and a computer with a battery. For sure you are concerned about child labour in that regard, or is there only the outrage because you don‘t like EVs?

Lol, I'm actually looking to test drive several different EV's this week as it will be added to our personal vehicle fleet but to say with such conviction that people's main decision for buying an EV is not economically driven is complete hyperbole. And yes, I do use a phone, laptop etc., just as you do, I'm just not a hypocrite about it.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

oh, the old cobalt chestnut….

Maybe you do a little research and find out, that cobalt use is being heavily reduced now and will be zero in the very near future.
And for example BMW sources their Cobalt from Australia and Mexico.

And even if we take this seriously for a moment, the cobalt use in an EV is ONCE , the chemicals that are pumped in our soils for fracking are happening perpetually.

And you have a mobile phone and a computer with a battery. For sure you are concerned about child labour in that regard, or is there only the outrage because you don‘t like EVs?

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Lol, I'm actually looking to test drive several different EV's this week as it will be added to our personal vehicle fleet but to say with such conviction that people's main decision for buying an EV is not economically driven is complete hyperbole. And yes, I do use a phone, laptop etc., just as you do, I'm just not a hypocrite about it.

Ok well you can’t just say they don’t use cobalt anymore and leave it that. That’s only part of the conversation. When was the last time taking a deep dive into lithium mining? Lithium ion battery disposal? Lithium ion based vehicle fires and how water is not cleaned prior to being put back into the ecosystem?



https://adi-analytics.com/2021/08/22...ic-vehicles-2/

Lithium deposits are also in Afghanistan which have not been mined yet.


Moving to EV is not necessarily cleaner, but it does allow an opportunity to reset industry margins and make more profit.


https://www.mining-technology.com/fe...thium-jackpot/

Interesting series of events.

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

the chemicals that are pumped in our soils for fracking are happening perpetually.

ah the old fracking chestnut ! so what chemicals are pumped into the ground for fracking ?

How quickly will your alternative energy make up for the void in natural gas so as to produce electricity for your EV ?

inquiring minds want to know !!

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by twitch54

ah the old fracking chestnut ! so what chemicals are pumped into the ground for fracking ?

Well, you can ask someone whose well or groundwater has been contamination by fracking. Has happened quite a lot on the western slope of Colorado.

I have also seen stories of fracking causing increased seismic activity in Oklahoma and, I believe, parts of other states as well.

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

Well, you can ask someone whose well or groundwater has been contamination by fracking. Has happened quite a lot on the western slope of Colorado.

I have also seen stories of fracking causing increased seismic activity in Oklahoma and, I believe, parts of other states as well.

that was not the answer to the question asked but I'll ask you one now, how does ground water become contaminated by fracking ? do you have any clue as to the fracking process ? how far below ground level is the average well fracked ? do you even know the 2 primary ingredients used in fracking ?

When it comes to natural gas (dry) and living in Pa, I'm very much aware of the process.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by twitch54

that was not the answer to the question asked but I'll ask you one now, how does ground water become contaminated by fracking ? do you have any clue as to the fracking process ? how far below ground level is the average well fracked ? do you even know the 2 primary ingredients used in fracking ?

When it comes to natural gas (dry) and living in Pa, I'm very much aware of the process.

So am I as my friends in Durango had their well contaminated from fracking on the adjacent property rendering their well water being red tagged by the state water quality agency. Seven years and over $100k in legal fees and they still truck in their water. Granted I am no expert as you seem to be but microfractures are known to allow contaminates to leach into surrounding fresh water aquifers.

Doesn’t happen in Penn.??

Well, this was a five second search….

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/endin...impacts-water/

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by twitch54

ah the old fracking chestnut ! so what chemicals are pumped into the ground for fracking ?

How quickly will your alternative energy make up for the void in natural gas so as to produce electricity for your EV ?

inquiring minds want to know !!

You‘ll find a list of chemicals that are added to water and sand for the fracking process here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

You‘ll find a list of chemicals that are added to water and sand for the fracking process here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

yep, I believe the key here is 'responsible' fracking, which as we all know does not always happen ........

[bondtoys]

So, you are calling me a hypocrite?

[logo]

Truth is, I don’t care if EV costs more than ICE - I believe over time the industry will trend to cost savings whether it be right from my own pocket or as a society as a whole. The first car was criticized, and the first car was far from perfect. As Henry Ford famously said, “No one wanted a faster horse, but everyone wanted less horsesh!t.” Pollution (I.e., necessity) was the driver of invention and technology adoption, just as it is today in the automotive industry. That led to major infrastructure changes and an economic boom. I believe that criticizing the shortcomings of EVs and sticking with ICE is akin to choosing to keep your horse, and the world will slowly leave you behind (how many parking stalls for horses have you seen at your neighborhood bar recently?). I’m buying EV because I believe that my purchase serves to help drive an entire industry forward.

[austinp]

When EVs cost the same and have the same capability I’ll get one. I’d love a quiet ride with a great sound system. I’ve driven Tundras for the last 20 years. When Toyota makes the EV Tundra I’m in.


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[East Bay Rider]

I'm still not sold on EV for myself though I do appreciate that estimated service requirements will be significantly fewer, like an appliance. I think that diesel will be around long after gasoline becomes unfashionable so at this time I favor diesel as an "alternative" fuel for my next truck.

[tonymil]

Thanks for this! I've been considering getting an EV as my next car but I wasn't sure as to which would be more affordable in the long run. I guess getting an EV would be very much worth it if I would be able to charge at home every time.

[bondtoys]

Fact 1. In proportion, EVs don‘t burn down more often that ICE cars.
Admittedly, they burn longer and the water water use is more than with a conventional car.

Fact2. Yes, lithium is used ONCE while producing petrol to use an ICE car is constantly polluting our soil.

And the CO2 offset for producing an EV is higher than with a conventional car.

Over the time of use (including second life and third life cycles for the batteries) those disadvantages are quickly compensated and after 2-3 years, an EV is environmentally friendlier than an ICE car.

All car producers announced the end of ICE engined cars in the near future, so - no matter if you like it or not - they are a thing of the past.

The Afghanistan article is interesting but I am not sure why you are mentioning it here?
You realize, that just some months ago, Afghanistan was governed by a Western-friendly administration and EVs with Lithium batteries exist longer?
I am sure that battery producers will find a way to use less lithium in their batteries and amend their Li sourcing elsewhere than Afghanistan.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Fact 1. In proportion, EVs don‘t burn down more often that ICE cars.
Admittedly, they burn longer and the water water use is more than with a conventional car.

Fact2. Yes, lithium is used ONCE while producing petrol to use an ICE car is constantly polluting our soil.

And the CO2 offset for producing an EV is higher than with a conventional car.

Over the time of use (including second life and third life cycles for the batteries) those disadvantages are quickly compensated and after 2-3 years, an EV is environmentally friendlier than an ICE car.

All car producers announced the end of ICE engined cars in the near future, so - no matter if you like it or not - they are a thing of the past.

The Afghanistan article is interesting but I am not sure why you are mentioning it here?
You realize, that just some months ago, Afghanistan was governed by a Western-friendly administration and EVs with Lithium batteries exist longer?
I am sure that battery producers will find a way to use less lithium in their batteries and amend their Li sourcing elsewhere than Afghanistan.

Appreciate the input and discussion.

Fact 1 above is still inconclusive. There is not enough data for us to make assumption either way. What we do know already though about existing lithium ion batteries is that they do not do well with temperature extremes/elements.

Fact 2 While interesting, lithium today is an input component for EV batteries

I agree that ICE vehicles won't be around forever. But I think EVs will fail miserably. More than likely Hydrogen Fuel Cell or similar Technology makes EVs look ancient in the next 5 to 10 years. Cutting their growth before they ever take off fully. Lack of addressing of the infrastructure needed to support EVs, tell me those are not really serious about them really gaining market share for whatever reason.

The reason I mention Afghanistan is that the timing is interesting. A lot of lithium just became available for future use. Not necessarily benefitting EVs, but more the producers of those and electronics that add those batteries in their production. Goes into mobile phone batteries too (which are big offenders of e waste).

Projected now to be dominated via EV use by 2025.

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/...vehicle-demand

It is estimated that it takes approximately 50k Kilometers of driving an EV to the breakeven emissions point. What that means is that we must drive each 50k minimum to breakeven. Eventually the process will clean up, but effectively what was seen was a proxy vehicle production cap on new vehicles.


Prior there was a massive excess global supply of pre-owned vehicles (retail, commercial both).

https://www.autonews.com/used-cars/c...sed-car-supply

Now to bring full circle. If you effectively place a proxy vehicle production cap on manufactures they're going to be more than angry right? But (and a big one), if they had a structural shift in their new vehicle production that allowed them to make and add new (and larger) margins, that would be somewhat of a reward right? EVs are the conduit. Everyone will see play out over the next 3-5 years now and come up with their own conclusions but typically that's called an economic reset. The benefactors being those regions that control inputs and/or production and the industries involved. Those taking most of the brunt are the consumers. How do you distract consumers from that? By guilting them into believing they are the majority cause of global pollution, so that they are guilted into higher prices while not being fully transparent on the pollution that is beyond the first layer of visibility. So long as you have a majority opinion (or perceived majority), market sentiment then swings towards the shift to see it come to fruition. Meanwhile not one plan on how to safely dispose of dead and beyond repair batteries on the mass scale. As evidenced by our inability to still even process lithium ion based smart phones and e waste properly (which we sure won't find publicized). Though the incentive is there to sell new product as broken down main components become complex or worn (such as extreme weathering) beyond repair. The vehicle industry is just one of many that has become overly complex and is wasteful with the over use of electronics that become quickly dated.

We need more innovation like what Swatch has done with their Castor oil based plastic alternatives. But it's tough to just force something because it sounds virtuous. We need real and actionable plans, not those that sound catchy on tv.

[bondtoys]

Hydrogen Cells:
Just check the amount of energy that is needed to produce hydrogen fuel shows that it can‘t be the future.

As far as the „catchup mileage“, it‘s more like 20.000 - 30.000 km, but it depends on which car you are using for that comparison.

The smaller car and battery are the sooner they catch up.

As for infrastructure: More public charging places are certainly needed and you can‘t have a charger for every car in the cities.
But the true potential is in the suburbs where the EV is charged in the front of the own home, preferrably with solar cells on the house roof ( and backed up by a secondlife EV battery).

Just to give you an idea how efficient an EV can be:

Our EV stores the equivalent energy of 6 liters of petrol (50KWH)
With that energy, the car can go approximately 350-400 km.
How far can you go with 6 liters of petrol with your ICE car?

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Hydrogen Cells:
Just check the amount of energy that is needed to produce hydrogen fuel shows that it can‘t be the future.

As far as the „catchup mileage“, it‘s more like 20.000 - 30.000 km, but it depends on which car you are using for that comparison.

The smaller car and battery are the sooner they catch up.

As for infrastructure: More public charging places are certainly needed and you can‘t have a charger for every car in the cities.
But the true potential is in the suburbs where the EV is charged in the front of the own home, preferrably with solar cells on the house roof ( and backed up by a secondlife EV battery).

Just to give you an idea how efficient an EV can be:

Our EV stores the equivalent energy of 6 liters of petrol (50KWH)
With that energy, the car can go approximately 350-400 km.
How far can you go with 6 liters of petrol with your ICE car?

This Love it or hate it, ICE engines will be replaced by EVs (or Hydrogen if they solve those problems). No, it will not be soon, but it is inevitable. You can make the choice to buy ICE right now, and for a long time, but someday, they will be novelties.

[Dyim]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

This Love it or hate it, ICE engines will be replaced by EVs (or Hydrogen if they solve those problems). No, it will not be soon, but it is inevitable. You can make the choice to buy ICE right now, and for a long time, but someday, they will be novelties.

Exactly.

ICE is being replaced because the world has decided EV is the way to go. I think the true long term environmental impact of EV has not been sorted out completely IMO.

Do we know what happens when the battery loses charge capacity after 5 - 10 years? I don't think it is easy to replace EV battery like a phone. Do we just throw away the car like we do with phones?

For me personally, range anxiety is a real issue where I live especially in the winter.

EV for me will be pretty much an additional vehicle to putt around town. An extra toy. I don't think it is environmentally friendly either to own more vehicles than you really need. Long hauls I will always go with ICE. I have gotten stuck on the highway in the winter for hours. If I am in that situation in an EV, I would need multiple changes of underwear looking at the range go down, while running the heat to keep warm.

I can't imagine what will happen in the winter when a bunch of EVs lost their charge while stuck on a traffic jam on the freeway in the winter. Tow truck drivers will have a field day.