Could you help me ID this vintage Rolex, please?

[Sylvia]

Hello. I am new to this forum, and I would sincerely and gratefully appreciate your knowledge, because I have tried my best to research this, and I am unable to identify this Rolex. It has been passed down to me by my late uncle, who told me that he bought it at a flea market in Rome in the mid-eighties. It works fine. I am attaching some pictures. There are so many numbers (some appear written on top of others), it is all quite confusing for me.

If possible, I would like to know what model it is, and if you can, its date? I would be happy and willing to have it cleaned and serviced, if you think that would be a good idea. I turn to this forum for expertise and guidance.

Thank you.

(one of the pics looks orange -- in reality it the stainless steel color like the other pics...)

[CTech]

Some of the numbers are confusing, but others make some sort of sense.

The original model number in the case back is 3892 and a search on that shows other similar models described as 28mm tonneau cases. These date from the late 1930s to the late 1940s and some have dials and/or hands identical to yours, so there is a good chance you have an original dial and hand set.

Why the 3892 has been overwritten to 4827 is a mystery to me as that isn't a Rolex model number, but the stamping looks as if it could have been done by Rolex.

The movement in yours isn't the same as most of the ones fitted to 3892 models so maybe the number was changed to reflect the use of a different movement sometime during the production run.

The 161 2 numbers on the rim of the case and in the case back were probably used to identify parts that would fit together, possibly at the case factory (where all the 161 2 case backs would fit 161 2 cases, but not 161 3 or 161 4 cases). It might have been an individual case number or it might have been added later during servicing.

The case back serial number is also odd and it looks as if the number was originally 539088 and has then been overstamped to 540088. This is strange and is not something you would have expected Rolex to do. The two lines of scratched marks are from previous services and I think they show the watch was serviced in 1970 and 1976.

Based on what I can see in the photos I would guess your watch is from about 1947/1948, probably has an original dial and hand set and possibly has had a change of movement.

A skilled watchmaker knowledgeable about these movements could probably give you better advice, and it might be worth sending a message to member R.W.T. who works on similar models.

The ambiguity in both the model number and the serial number might never be explained so if it was mine I would clean it up a little, put it on a good quality leather strap and wear it as a nice example of a late 1940s stainless steel tonneau cased watch, only servicing the movement when I knew how much use it was getting and being able to assess its timekeeping capabilities.

Others will disagree with this and say it should be serviced immediately as the oils will have dried out, migrated away, etc., but you've got to bear in mind the cost of parts and servicing might exceed the value of the watch.

[miamiclay]

Great explanation & in the best spirit of TRF.

Just want to say that “from my uncle, from a Rome flea market in the mid-80s” is somehow perfect for the watch, with all its movement and case number issues. If it runs, and you (or someone) likes and wears it, you can get it serviced per the above. For me, that family story alone would be worth using the watch. Very cool.

[Sylvia]

CTech and miamiclay:

thank you so very much for your time, keen eye, knowledge, and feedback. I understand better now what the numbers mean, and I am delighted to know an approximate age for this Rolex watch. I am truly so grateful for this!

For CTech: after reading your clear and kind explanation about the case numbers and their meaning, I tried an internet search, and I found a reference to another watch (seems to me auctioned at Christie's in the mid-nineties) that is described as having both number 3892 and also the overwritten 4827. I am attaching a screenshot of the written description. Unfortunately, there was no photo included. Does this make the mystery even deeper?

For miamiclay: I did not want to overextend my welcome with much storytelling on my first post on the board, but after your heartwarming comment, please allow me to add a bit more to what I wrote above. [For those who do not wish to read some more of the story, please skip this paragraph, with my apologies, if it is uwarranted]. The rest of the story goes: my dear uncle Furio back then told me that he went to the Rome flea market "Porta Portese" (still nowadays held every Sunday) to find some old kitchen chairs. On his way among the vendors, he walked by an older man sitting on one of those old, straw filled chairs, with a small table in front of him, full of watches and clocks that he was selling. The elderly man wore a heavy coat. After my uncle looked at his ware on the small table, finding nothing that interested him, the older vendor -- opening the buttons of his heavy coat -- cautiously showed my uncle the inside of his coat, where he had sewn several extra panels/pockets, from which his more valuable watches were dangling. My uncle spotted this old Rolex and bought it. Uncle Furio said that the two of them mostly communicated through gestures and smiles, as there was a language barrier; the elderly man explained in broken Italian that he was a Soviet Russian Jew (which could very well be, as there was a large immigration of Soviet Jews to the town of Ladispoli, near Rome, in the 70ies and early 80ies). I have always wondered if maybe this watch traveled with him when he emigrated, or if perhaps the elderly man was a watchmaker himself back in the Soviet Union. I will never know. The whole narrative is endearing for sure.

Yes, I love this old watch, and not only for sentimental reasons, of course. It keeps the time perfectly. I wear it often, almost like my every-day, beloved watch (oh ... I hope I am not saying something offensive here to the esteemed connoisseurs on this forum, I am sorry if I am...). I wear it with a simple, and safe, nylon watch strap (I do not wear leather, CTech).

Sorry if this is a long post, please accept my gratitude for your help and mentorship. Should there be other comments or feedback, I welcome them.

Sylvia

[TimeLord2]

I always enjoy your perspective @MiamiClay!

[R.W.T.]

Hi Sylvia, I don't think there is much I can really add to CTech's post other than the watch would be earliest 1945 and probably more in that 46-53 range. By 53 at some point the dial would've switched to SWISS only instead of SWISS MADE. Before 45 you wouldn't see the super shock mechanism on the balance cap jewel. This is the early shock resting mechanism. I would speculate that the watch is all original parts. Calibre 700 early shock resisting 15 jewel unadjusted. This is the lower grade of the movement but they run very well. If it has not been serviced it should be because the lubrication will dry out and become viscous and it will cause wear. Enjoy it. The case numbering anomalies...these things happened a lot in that period of time and I wouldn't be terribly concerned with it. If it were a super collectible piece worth 5 figures possibly but in your case it's a very good 40s-50s gents watch and it works well....wear it and enjoy it!

[Sylvia]

Thank you, R.W.T., for your added information. It has been really helpful for me.

I am glad to finally understand more about this lovely vintage Rolex watch that my uncle gave me. I will follow your collective advice and have it looked at, so that I can keep enjoying it for many more years.

Thank you all, for your time and knowledge.

Sylvia

[Sylvia]

I just wanted to follow up with my previous posts.

This morning I took the train and went to Salt Lake City to a watchmaker who is familiar with the 1940s Rolexes, and services them regularly (he has a Swiss certification and really appreciates old watches). In fact, as I walked in his studio, he was actually working on a .... drum roll ... 1948-ish Rolex gents watch. That was a good omen for me, I think I found the right person for my watch.

As he opened my vintage Rolex's case this morning, he smiled super wide and said "cuuuuuuteee!", and that was the greatest compliment in my book. It will be ready around mid-Feb (the gentleman is a one-man show, and he is backed up by a few weeks), and he said it is all original Rolex, with the exception of the crown.

May I ask your opinion, if you think that the crown is not authentic? I posted some pics on my OP, and here are a couple more.

The watchmaker was happy that I have been using this watch as my everyday watch. He will not make is look "new" and will keep all the old parts in. Which is what I want, I don't want it up to specs, I like it old, and showing that it is vintage.

I saw this picture on the web, and to my untrained eyes, the crowns look similar (or not?). Maybe both had been replaced, who knows. Anyhow, if you have an opinion on the crown on my Rolex, it will be appreciated.

https://www.blackbough.co.uk/product...-1947-wwrsfam/

Thank you again for your kindness and expertise.

Sylvia