Imo the best article In many years….

[unknown]

https://quillandpad.com/2022/08/21/i...d-for-the-ind/


And definitely for the 90-95% out there that don’t know that much about watches but just buy certain brands.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by unknown

https://quillandpad.com/2022/08/21/i...d-for-the-ind/


And definitely for the 90-95% out there that don’t know that much about watches but just buy certain brands.

That was a very fun read. Thanks for sharing!

[charger_vital]

Great Article. Thanks!

[GoingPlaces]

Internal angles vs rounded curves, never knew. Great article.

[Skyrider01]

Great article! I learned a few things. Thanks for sharing.

[2bigalow]

Excellent read, thanks for posting.

[mongrelnomoad]

Fabulous! Thanks for posting!

[stormshadow]

Thanks for sharing; very good read

[AlexFzh]

Interesting point about anglage. First thing I notice when seeing the movement of a rep VC overseas vs my real one is the lack of 3 dimensional feel. Now I know it’s called the anglage and why they won’t bother doing this for a rep.

[enjoythemusic]

Great read, and yes you can see how some brands nowadays do their best to design out anything that takes additional effort. We know Patek Philippe does this to reduce effort, tho Panerai takes the prize for doing the least effort to a movement imho.

[dchang81]

Is there a similar article about skeletonization? Seems like everyone and their mom skeletonized their watches with laser beams, diluting the difficult hand done models.

[Mendota]

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting! It would be fun to watch some of those artisans create the various parts that were featured in the photographs.

[dchang81]

The other thing I don't get is why Patek didn't at least try to put one interior angle just to say hey we can do it too

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dchang81

The other thing I don't get is why Patek didn't at least try to put one interior angle just to say hey we can do it too

Have been hoping Patek launches a 'Connoisseur Series', to get back to their heyday in handcraftsmen. There is much lost potential imho. Or at least add a little bit of added effort to the special handcrafted enamel timepieces.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by dchang81

The other thing I don't get is why Patek didn't at least try to put one interior angle just to say hey we can do it too

Yes they do, but only in the highest grand complications like the 6301 and 5207.

6301P (@SJX)
Patek-Philippe-Grande-Sonnerie-6301P-movement-anglage.jpg

Patek-Philippe-Grande-Sonnerie-6301P-watch-19a.jpg

5207G (@en.worldtempus)
5207.jpg

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Yes they do, but only in the highest grand complications like the 6301 and 5207.

Sad, as that means PP will never create a high-quality Calatrava. Also eliminates other possibilities.

Truly do hope the Kid adds a new series. Heck, call it a Heritage Series with all the tried-and-true fanfare of bringing out the typical vintage pieces and their recent auction results. Actually, I don't care what the company's marketing department chooses to call it. The point is we all know, and it's a sad situation.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Sad, as that means PP will never create a high-quality Calatrava. Also eliminates other possibilities.

Truly do hope the Kid adds a new series. Heck, call it a Heritage Series with all the tried-and-true fanfare of bringing out the typical vintage pieces and their recent auction results. Actually, I don't care what the company's marketing department chooses to call it. The point is we all know, and it's a sad situation.

Yes they do for Calatrava, but it's done on the dials of 5089/5077 instead of the anglage behind. "Rare handcrafts" Patek called it.

The engraving, marquetry, guilloché, and enameling are all done by hands. Aren't these stunning?

IMG_20220824_122743_(900_x_510_pixel).jpg

[lmdh]

Thanks for sharing!

[RolexSimon]

The rise of the Independents is here to stay i hope......

[enjoythemusic]

So you're saying they don't do anything special for the movement on these special rare handcraft pieces? Do you find that a bit of a let-down having such a glorious dial and basic movement inside instead of the same care they do for their 'best pieces'?

Am glad Patek outsources the dials to be made by experts in their craft, maybe they need to do more of that for movement decoration and craftsmanship? Yes those dials are indeed stunning, and yes other brands outsource such work too.

But, again, what about the movement? Will PP ever make a high-quality Calatrava movement ever again considering the efforts to make these special dials? Let us hope so. Truly would like to see Patek live up to their potential, instead of doing just what is 'good enough'.

But overall, there's lost potential, and that's what i feel is truly a disservice to their customers, enthusiasts, and to some extent the industry too. In the past some of us look up to Patek, now other brands / watchmakers get the attention for their incredible efforts.

Also why i have not bothered looking at PP in many years, whereas decades ago was quite the enthusiast. Had all the lithographs, my AD lost AD-ship and we came to an agreement about the 5110 dealer Wall Clock. i like their magazine too, been getting it since issue 1 and just got whatever issue they just sent out.

Over the past year or so have spoken to various timepiece magazine folks about PP's reduction in quality. Some have said (privately) to me that PP needs to be removed from the 1960s Holy Trinity list (what i call the 'Trinity Trap'). Patek Philippe imho is sliding backward to push more products out the door while other truly independent manufacturers have been pushing horology forward in various directions. This is where Patek desperately needs a new Series of timepieces, because they certainly aren't competitive today imho (until you get to a very high price level PP where you could, instead, have a custom-made timepiece crafted by some very impressive independent watchmakers).

The great news is that Patek helps train watchmakers. We need more of those. Once these craftspeople have a solid skillset....

So my wishes are for PP to succeed, but for today they pretty much have nothing that truly impresses me over what various other smaller independents are doing at the same (or lower) pricing. As best i can remember, it wasn't always that way.

So let's hope my pleas do not fall on deaf ears at Patek Philippe. Am hoping magazine editors and many customers are able to convince the Kid to bring PP back to top-shelf craftsmanship, without regard to cutting corners by rounding edges, etc.

Buuuuuuut since they're pretty much stuck with what they've been doing over the past number of years, and dare not upset current buyers, a new 'top-shelf' Series is probably the only way to market them without upsetting too many of their current customers imho.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

So my wishes are for PP to succeed, but for today they pretty much have nothing that truly impresses me over what various other smaller independents are doing at the same (or lower) pricing. As best i can remember, it wasn't always that way.

Simple - just buy what you like. There are many aspects of a watch other than dufour-nian finishing of their work-horse movement. And we don't have to like the same brand, or force ourselves to like any particular brand.

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

So you're saying they don't do anything special for the movement on these special rare handcraft pieces? Do you find that a bit of a let-down having such a glorious dial and basic movement inside instead of the same care they do for their 'best pieces'?

Am glad Patek outsources the dials to be made by experts in their craft, maybe they need to do more of that for movement decoration and craftsmanship? Yes those dials are indeed stunning, and yes other brands outsource such work too.

But, again, what about the movement? Will PP ever make a high-quality Calatrava movement ever again considering the efforts to make these special dials? Let us hope so. Truly would like to see Patek live up to their potential, instead of doing just what is 'good enough'.

But overall, there's lost potential, and that's what i feel is truly a disservice to their customers, enthusiasts, and to some extent the industry too. In the past some of us look up to Patek, now other brands / watchmakers get the attention for their incredible efforts.

Also why i have not bothered looking at PP in many years, whereas decades ago was quite the enthusiast. Had all the lithographs, my AD lost AD-ship and we came to an agreement about the 5110 dealer Wall Clock. i like their magazine too, been getting it since issue 1 and just got whatever issue they just sent out.

Over the past year or so have spoken to various timepiece magazine folks about PP's reduction in quality. Some have said (privately) to me that PP needs to be removed from the 1960s Holy Trinity list (what i call the 'Trinity Trap'). Patek Philippe imho is sliding backward to push more products out the door while other truly independent manufacturers have been pushing horology forward in various directions. This is where Patek desperately needs a new Series of timepieces, because they certainly aren't competitive today imho (until you get to a very high price level PP where you could, instead, have a custom-made timepiece crafted by some very impressive independent watchmakers).

The great news is that Patek helps train watchmakers. We need more of those. Once these craftspeople have a solid skillset....

So my wishes are for PP to succeed, but for today they pretty much have nothing that truly impresses me over what various other smaller independents are doing at the same (or lower) pricing. As best i can remember, it wasn't always that way.

So let's hope my pleas do not fall on deaf ears at Patek Philippe. Am hoping magazine editors and many customers are able to convince the Kid to bring PP back to top-shelf craftsmanship, without regard to cutting corners by rounding edges, etc.

Buuuuuuut since they're pretty much stuck with what they've been doing over the past number of years, and dare not upset current buyers, a new 'top-shelf' Series is probably the only way to market them without upsetting too many of their current customers imho.

Have you spent any time at all reading about Patek's new movements? Patents? No doubt, in a perfect world, we’d all get bespoke watches, handmade by gray-haired craftsmen, at affordable prices and available when we want. Never the less, in a world of trade offs, Patek is still innovating, and delivering high quality watches in reasonable volumes despite the frenzy of people treating their lowest end steel watches as “grails.”

They’re certainly not perfect, but they’re among the best of the survivors in an industry that nearly died more than once.

[bobernet]

Dupe

[huydoan]

I agree with this article. At first I only know mainstream brands like PP and stick to it, but now move to some independent brands like Kudoke and Felipe Pikullik. The latter is beautifully crafted, especially the skeletonized watch. All is done by hands, and the price is very reasonable.