Explain to me the importance of Box and Papers i nused watches

[docmri]

Hi,
I am looking to purchase one or two Rolex watches. These are watches I intend to enjoy and then perhaps leave to my kids to sell one day in the future. Some of the watches I look at have current models manufactured in the last five years. So, it makes sense to me that when looking to buy a more recent watch, I would like to have the papers /warranty card so I know how much longer I have the watch's warranty. I suppose the box is nice to have as well, although I am not entirely clear why this is a big plus in its favor if I plan to wear it or keep it on my winder. I guess I intrinsically understand it is a complete set, so that should be more desirable, but I am not sure how to evaluate how much $$ it should add to the price. Similarly, when I am looking to purchase a discontinued model (for example, a 40mm Sub that is no longer covered under warranty, why do I really prefer to have the box and papers? The only reason I can think of is to know for sure the year of the watch in case there were movement changes from year to year, although I wonder if it is possible to know the year of the watch's manufacturing without the warranty and papers? Nevertheless, is there any reason why having the warranty card /papers of a watch that was discontinued more than 5 years ago and thus is no longer under warranty is really something that should drive the price a few thousand dollars higher? Or, is it really necessary to know the manufacture date. I ask since I see a large discrepancy between box and papers watches versus without

[77T]

Importance is in the eye of the beholder...

I prefer full sets to get better value when I later trade or sell it.


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[docmri]

Apologies. I see this has been discussed before. I can't seem to figure out how to delete the thread and post

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by docmri

Apologies. I see this has been discussed before. I can't seem to figure out how to delete the thread and post

No need to apologize.

If we didn’t re-hash topics, there wouldn’t be much to talk about here

[nachopc]

Originally Posted by brandrea

No need to apologize.

If we didn’t re-hash topics, there wouldn’t be much to talk about here

Agreed !


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[Deppe]

I will refer to this post from the CEO of Amsterdam Vintage Watches:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/watch...aign=share_via

However, I agree that for new-ish watches, I would not buy without box and papers, as everybody for these watches should know to keep the box and papers - otherwise there is too high a risk that the watch is stolen!

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I will refer to this post from the CEO of Amsterdam Vintage Watches:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/watch...aign=share_via

However, I agree that for new-ish watches, I would not buy without box and papers, as everybody for these watches should know to keep the box and papers - otherwise there is too high a risk that the watch is stolen!

Yup. I just said that in another thread. There is no reason that a watch less than 3, or even 5 years old, shouldn’t have papers.

Kat


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[ShamRockNRoll]

The points made in this link are spot on. I am routinely shocked when I see so many folks here committed to the idea that box & papers are of any significant value or lend any real provenance to a watch – particularly vintage.

I also admit, like the quoted poster, that when I'm shopping for a modern watch I'd want them simply because it's so unlikely an original purchaser in the last couple years would just throw them away... but in my vintage browsing it's not a factor at all.

Originally Posted by Deppe

I will refer to this post from the CEO of Amsterdam Vintage Watches:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/watch...aign=share_via

However, I agree that for new-ish watches, I would not buy without box and papers, as everybody for these watches should know to keep the box and papers - otherwise there is too high a risk that the watch is stolen!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I will refer to this post from the CEO of Amsterdam Vintage Watches:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/watch...aign=share_via

Written by a dealer who makes a living selling watches that often don't come with B&P. Of course he's going to say this!

Only thing I agree with in the article is that the lack of B&P shouldn't be a deal-breaker on an otherwise great vintage Rolex.

[jlee55]

I understand you found another post but thought I would reply here to you directly. If you are going to keep the watch as something to potentially hand down to your children I'd suggest going with the route of buying and maintaining a full set. Financially the difference between a vintage watch with papers vs without papers is staggering. Of course we assume our family wouldn't sell a family heirloom passed down to them, but the monetary value associated with the watches will also be sentimental knowing that you were thinking of them and what the watches would be to them in the long run. If you end up going the no papers route, be sure you are paying an appropriate price and not being over charged.

Originally Posted by docmri

Hi,
I am looking to purchase one or two Rolex watches. These are watches I intend to enjoy and then perhaps leave to my kids to sell one day in the future. Some of the watches I look at have current models manufactured in the last five years. So, it makes sense to me that when looking to buy a more recent watch, I would like to have the papers /warranty card so I know how much longer I have the watch's warranty. I suppose the box is nice to have as well, although I am not entirely clear why this is a big plus in its favor if I plan to wear it or keep it on my winder. I guess I intrinsically understand it is a complete set, so that should be more desirable, but I am not sure how to evaluate how much $$ it should add to the price. Similarly, when I am looking to purchase a discontinued model (for example, a 40mm Sub that is no longer covered under warranty, why do I really prefer to have the box and papers? The only reason I can think of is to know for sure the year of the watch in case there were movement changes from year to year, although I wonder if it is possible to know the year of the watch's manufacturing without the warranty and papers? Nevertheless, is there any reason why having the warranty card /papers of a watch that was discontinued more than 5 years ago and thus is no longer under warranty is really something that should drive the price a few thousand dollars higher? Or, is it really necessary to know the manufacture date. I ask since I see a large discrepancy between box and papers watches versus without

[John Ryan]

I’m in the minority on this one.

As you suggest, if the watch is <5 years old and no box papers I move on.

Anything older, I’m going for the up front discount. With the exception of the above comment around vintage, the premium received on future sale will likely not appreciate against the premium saved on purchase. If the box and papers spread favors anyone it’s the dealers. I have been buying and selling on the time horizon of months to years.

In many of my (non Rolex ) purchases I was able to register the watch and serial number on the manufacturers website.

[East of Eden]

Originally Posted by John Ryan

I’m in the minority on this one.

As you suggest, if the watch is <5 years old and no box papers I move on.

Anything older, I’m going for the up front discount. With the exception of the above comment around vintage, the premium received on future sale will likely not appreciate against the premium saved on purchase. If the box and papers spread favors anyone it’s the dealers. I have been buying and selling on the time horizon of months to years.

In many of my (non Rolex ) purchases I was able to register the watch and serial number on the manufacturers website.

Agreed, to me the box is something else to lose

[gerry100]

important only if you plan to sell

[Kingcobb]

Because you want to have a full set when your current watch that you never wear and keep absolutely pristine goes up in value when modern watches become vintage....or you could just wear your watch and worry less about future resale.

If the price is right sure.....but on a watch I'm going to wear and use, not interested in paying a premium for it.

Now omega is a different story, if you want to look up your watch's test results online you need that plastic card.

[nachopc]

I always buy full set, but has to agree that condition is the most important thing.
Having said that, if there are plenty of these watches in the market, I would buy always with papers.


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[Bazil]

I’m in the box and papers team .. not too bothered about unused, I’ve just picked up a watch slightly used belonged to Mark Hearn, means nothing to many, but it does to me ..
Without box and papers - to me - I wonder why that may be, now I know some people don’t give a shiny shite about the box and papers and toss them away .. but the other side is if the watch is stolen .. that’s just my take and my way of purchasing watches ..
Plus who knows what changes in life, if sadly you did have to move a watch on having the box and papers certainly does make life easier selling it ..
Good luck in whatever you chose to do ….
Please also re-hash some Daytona threads, they are my favourite ..

[cdm765]

I would never buy a watch without original papers. Especially a Rolex - there are SO many that you can just get another one.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Condition >>> Papers >>> Box

[Kevin of Larchmont]

You know, I think the whole “stolen watch seized by Rolex” scenario while possible is a little overblown. And just because we, a forum of enthusiasts and collectors, are religious about storing our boxes and papers it’s not realistic to assert that there is no good reason for a watch under five years old not to have them. Some people are knuckleheads, simple as that and they only care about the object, not the packaging. Having said that while I prefer box and papers I am not wed to them if I know who I’m buying from. Also, my recently acquired CPO DSSD didn’t come with the original box and papers but came with a CPO box and warranty card so in that example I was really paying for guaranteed authenticity rather than provenance or history. It’s really pretty subjective.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

You know, I think the whole “stolen watch seized by Rolex” scenario while possible is a little overblown. And just because we, a forum of enthusiasts and collectors, are religious about storing our boxes and papers it’s not realistic to assert that there is no good reason for a watch under five years old not to have them. Some people are knuckleheads, simple as that and they only care about the object, not the packaging. Having said that while I prefer box and papers I am not wed to them if I know who I’m buying from. Also, my recently acquired CPO DSSD didn’t come with the original box and papers but came with a CPO box and warranty card so in that example I was really paying for guaranteed authenticity rather than provenance or history. It’s really pretty subjective.

Learned this the "hard" way years ago - Rolex seized my GMT II when I took it for service. Bought it from a bloke locally... watch was naked but in nice condition, but unbeknownst to me, was stolen and reported as such.

Never got it back - out all that money. Not a situation I will willingly put myself in again. So no, it's not overblown. Rolex has, does, and will continue to seize watches that come in for service that have been reported as "stolen"...

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by 0nly5iv3Digits

Learned this the "hard" way years ago - Rolex seized my GMT II when I took it for service. Bought it from a bloke locally... watch was naked but in nice condition, but unbeknownst to me, was stolen and reported as such.

Never got it back - out all that money. Not a situation I will willingly put myself in again. So no, it's not overblown. Rolex has, does, and will continue to seize watches that come in for service that have been reported as "stolen"...

I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

Nonetheless, your situation is rare relative to the number of times the fear of seizing of watches by RSCs is referenced here. I clearly said it was possible but the worry about it far outweighs the examples.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

Nonetheless, your situation is rare relative to the number of times the fear of seizing of watches by RSCs is referenced here. I clearly said it was possible but the worry about it far outweighs the examples.

Was a long time ago, mate. All good. And I agree it is unlikely (generally speaking) to come across a stolen watch that has been registered as such with Rolex.

However, I'm just chiming in to confirm that if one is to be so unlucky to end up with a "stolen" watch and send it in to RSC for service, it will be seized. I have spoken extensively with Rolex over the years - this is their policy.

I just choose not to mess around with watches that don't come as full-set anymore. Peace of mind to me is everything in this hobby as far as neo-vintage Rolex goes.

[docmri]

Thank you to all who responded.

I did note some folks mentioning they prefer the watch UNpolished. Why is that preferable?
Regarding the watch being reported stolen if brought into for service. I assume a reputable dealer (like the ones on the forum as trusted dealers) would refund the money of a watch they sold that didn't have papers but turned out to be stolen? Or, is that wishful thinking and its always "buyer beware"?

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by docmri

Thank you to all who responded.

I did note some folks mentioning they prefer the watch UNpolished. Why is that preferable?
Regarding the watch being reported stolen if brought into for service. I assume a reputable dealer (like the ones on the forum as trusted dealers) would refund the money of a watch they sold that didn't have papers but turned out to be stolen? Or, is that wishful thinking and its always "buyer beware"?

Depending on the dealer, they may do so. But I wouldn't count on it. It would become a matter for the civil court system to sort out otherwise... a costly, timely and often futile exercise.

With regard to your query, Rolex watches (like any other good) have a certain character to them that is present when New. Over-polishing, or incorrect polishing runs the risk of "losing" that character - in this case, the shape/overall proportions of the case, lugs, crown-guards etc. may be altered.

If you can find an unpolished watch in good condition (without a crazy amount of dings or deep scratches), that would be the way to go in my mind.

There are many here that don't care as much for the "character" of the watch being as intended by Rolex.

To each their own ~

[DOUBLE 0 SE7EN]

For example I have a PAM233 with box without papers which is 12 years old, no one wants to buy for that reason.. so automatically it is a keeper for me :)

[cdm765]

Originally Posted by DOUBLE 0 SE7EN

For example I have a PAM233 with box without papers which is 12 years old, no one wants to buy for that reason.. so automatically it is a keeper for me :)

No one wants to buy it because it’s a Panerai

[TudorDXB]

I have a simple rule:

Modern rolex, cartier, etc. I would expect a full set i.e. box, cards, wallets, booklets, tags - the whole nine yards.

Neo-vintage - I am happy to just buy the watch only as I don't care about box & papers because they add very little value in what the watch is supposed to be. I will obviously have the piece authenticated which will provide me the additional comfort that I need.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by TudorDXB

I have a simple rule:

Modern rolex, cartier, etc. I would expect a full set i.e. box, cards, wallets, booklets, tags - the whole nine yards.

Neo-vintage - I am happy to just buy the watch only as I don't care about box & papers because they add very little value in what the watch is supposed to be. I will obviously have the piece authenticated which will provide me the additional comfort that I need.

Totally agree with this!

[padi56]

Myself would never pay any extra for any watch produced in the last 30 plus years for mostly a outdated warranty or packaging box and bits of plastic.Because that's all these so called papers/card are once the warranty has expired, well its just a bit of paper or plastic card.And never rely on these bits of paper or card to prove authenticity of any watch as today these are the easiest to fake,being around Rolex watches for over 50 years have seen many fake papers.cards that would fool most today.Condition of the watch is paramount and today its very easy to get the back off if you are paranoid and must check the movement if not buying from a known reliable source.Now if no history and watch is over a certain age then have it serviced then you will have a valid two year bit of paper with all the watch detail on it.But today the Internet has made this packaging,bezel protectors, hangtags, holograms,sticky-back plastic,serials, and bits of paper look like the holy grail of Rolex, and far more important than the main thing the actual Rolex watch.

[thesharkfactor]

Try sell a used Rolex without B&P and you will find it harder to sell and you'll get less money for it.
However, this means you can buy without B&P for a little less if that doesn't matter to you.

I have owned several full sets and serveral watches without.

Often older watches dont have B&P because they didn't care back then, now in internet age, it matters.