Zenith Daytona, is this normal ? Chrono Big hand not at 12 o clock position after RSC

[lusfort]

Hi all,

I recently picked up an A Series Zenith 16523.

Box and Papers intact and this watch has never been polished ( pics attached)

I’d recently sent it in for a full service at the local RSC in my country and when I got it back, I realized that the big Chrono hand wasn’t pointing exactly at 12 when at its rest position.

I’d then sent it back in to the Rolex Service centre saying that it was unacceptable. Where they agreed to take it in to “adjust” the hands.

Just yesterday I received the watch back again from the RSC with the Big Chrono hands seemly still in the same position ( photos attached). Where the service staff said that the Rolex technicians have tried their best but there is nothing more that they can do

Is this just me being OCD? Are other zenith movements the same and would you accept this outcome after spending good money on a RSC service?


Below you can see the middle “stick” of the crown is not covered by the arrowhead of the chrono hand









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[lusfort]

More zoom




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[eugenetsang]

you're in HK. I suggest you take it to Michael Young at Classic Watch Repair. He used to be in TST... But recently moved to Central. They specialize in Rolex. I accidentally dropped my Sub and dinged up one of the lugs. Michael and his team did an excellent job lazer welding it back to 100%. They do maintenance too. Give them a visit.



https://www.classicwatchrepair.com/english/about

1603, 1 Lyndhurst Tower

1 Lyndhurst Terrace,

Central, Hong Kong

[lusfort]

This came back from The Rolex Service Centre, I don’t see why I should spend more money externally to get it fixed.

I’ve had a positive experience with classic watch repair in HK, but I’m afraid we are veering completely off topic here


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[eugenetsang]

Originally Posted by lusfort

This came back from The Rolex Service Centre, I don’t see why I should spend more money externally to get it fixed.

I’ve had a positive experience with classic watch repair in HK, but I’m afraid we are veering completely off topic here


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They give free consultations. You're not spending money on something that is "free". Hear what they have to say and figure out if you want to spend extra money with them or not. Or send it back to RSC and roll the dice and see what they can do.

You already said RSC can't do much more for you. Even if you complain, Rolex isn't going to give you a new Daytona. The most they are going to do is try to repair the movement so that it aligns at 12oclock, which they said they've already done their "best".

[S’portEye]

I’d leave it alone. The enemy of good is perfect.

[eugenetsang]

CWR also does movement maintenance/service. Which this also falls under... Since your hand is misaligned.

If Mike and his team can overhaul vintage pieces and make them "like new", this should be cake walk for them

[MattyL147]

I get wanting things "perfect" but that's a little too extreme for me. I'd leave it be; wouldn't bother me at all.

[eugenetsang]

Originally Posted by MattyL147

I get wanting things "perfect" but that's a little too extreme for me. I'd leave it be; wouldn't bother me at all.

it's bothering him. He spent money on service and his watch came back less than desired for. I'm suggesting him take it to his local watchmaker (whom I've dealt with before and trust 100%) and see what his recommendation would be.

I don't see why his chrono hand doesn't line up at 12oclock after service? There has to be a fix.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by MattyL147

I get wanting things "perfect" but that's a little too extreme for me. I'd leave it be; wouldn't bother me at all.

Have to agree that fraction of a mm is not worth fretting and worrying about.

[askdanny]

No, don't leave it alone.

It happened to me after having serviced my 116500LN by RSC.

A Rolex authorized dealer that has a watchmaker on staff can adjust it manually. He took a loope and agreed it was not centered.

Afterwards, he said that it took him "a few tries" but he got it centered perfectly. Don't let them off the hook. RSC messed up. It's not you, it's them. It can be adjusted fairly easily without taking the whole watch apart. And I wasn't charged, obviously.

—Danny

[Robf52]

Originally Posted by askdanny

no, don't leave it alone.

It happened to me after having serviced my 116500ln by rsc.

A rolex authorized dealer that has a watchmaker on staff can adjust it manually. He took a loope and agreed it was not centered.

Afterwards, he said that it took him "a few tries" but he got it centered perfectly. Don't let them off the hook. Rsc messed up. It's not you, it's them. It can be adjusted fairly easily without taking the whole watch apart. And i wasn't charged, obviously.

+1.

[gamingdoctor]

This would not bother me, but to each his own.

[brandrea]

I’m having a hard time seeing it. That said if it bothers you I guess you could have a go with someone like MY

[Flypanam]

Wouldn't bother me. I can barely even see it.. it's off by like a micron haha. If you change your viewing angle ever so slightly, it would look off-center depending on if you're looking from the left or right.

That being said, if it really does bother you, take it back. This is a Rolex service not some random watchmaker off the street. The service quality should be top notch and should leave you happy.

[cht]

Are you sure it's not the Rolex Crown on the dial is crooked and off center to the right?

[ltmgeller]

Looks fine to me. Just enjoy it. Did you try using it to see if the hand changes when you reset it?

[123Blueface]

I don’t think it’s the Chrono hand. In this photo of yours, it is as close to perfection, dead center on the seconds markers. Could it be the dial that is set that way?
Seems to me, the crown on the dial may be what is throwing you off.
Either way, having to magnify it to this degree to see this says to me that it is its insignificant. Can’t imagine it being noticeable when wearing and viewing watch from normal distance.

[77T]

I dunno - the El Primero movement clutch engagement would make up the difference anyway.

But I get the desire for precision. Looks between about 1/10th to 1/5th of a second error.

Afterall, the difference of 1/5th of a second in this quali session meant a lot...



Yeah, Yeah, Yeah - it ain't F1 - but it could be better.

Now, for the record, I understand each movement has a life affected by its treatment. Using the chrono and clicking reset or other gear train gnashing shocks can affect precision in the components.

Only the OP can tell us (if when it was a new watch) that it was originally delivered to him with a perfectly aligned chrono sweep seconds hand.

If so, then it's likely going to cost more money (maybe a lot more) to replace the nominally worn gears or other items to get back to original perfection.

Perfection comes at a price...


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[Andad]

Originally Posted by 77T

I dunno - the El Primero movement clutch engagement would make up the difference anyway.

But I get the desire for precision. Looks between about 1/10th to 1/5th of a second error.

Afterall, the difference of 1/5th of a second in this quali session meant a lot...



Yeah, Yeah, Yeah - it ain't F1 - but it could be better.

Now, for the record, I understand each movement has a life affected by its treatment. Using the chrono and clicking reset or other gear train gnashing shocks can affect precision in the components.

Only the OP can tell us (if when it was a new watch) that it was originally delivered to him with a perfectly aligned chrono sweep seconds hand.

If so, then it's likely going to cost more money (maybe a lot more) to replace the nominally worn gears or other items to get back to original perfection.

Perfection comes at a price...


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No point trying to read a split on a current movement Daytona.

You can’t measure 1/10ths or 1/5ths of a second with a chronograph running at 28800vph.

That will have increments of 1/8 of a second.

Therefore it will only be aligned with the markers at 1/2 second intervals.

Rolex should go back to 36000vph?

[77T]

Originally Posted by Andad

No point trying to read a split on a current movement Daytona.

You can’t measure 1/10ths or 1/5ths of a second with a chronograph running at 28800vph.

That will have increments of 1/8 of a second.

Therefore it will only be aligned with the markers at 1/2 second intervals.

Rolex should go back to 36000vph?

I realize the math is true there Eddie. I never used my Daytona for splits. I used it for keeping track of stints in endurance events.

But I don't think Rolex ever used 36,000 vph - the original Zenith module was purposely changed by their designers to 28,800.

CAUTION: Nerd stuff follows...

When Rolex decided to replace the manual wind Valjoux in first generation Daytonas with Zenith, they replaced the Zenith regulating organ at 36,000 vph, with the Microstella regulator. Rolex had used that in most of its movements already.

The new, larger balance reduced the frequency to 28800 vibrations per hour. This meant that wear and tear of the chrono module was reduced and the escapement could be lubricated in the conventional way.

Time intervals are measured to within one-eighth of a second with the center chronograph seconds hand but the scale is printed in 1/5ths. And with the space between these hash marks one might presume it's a 1/10ths reading.

This picture below shows what you said - noting the position of the central seconds arrow while running is not perfectly between the hash's. That is 5/8ths recorded on a 1/5ths scale. If one wants real precision then buy an original Zenith which did operate at 36,000 vph.




Since we are talking about OP's 4030 Zenith based caliber, let's do an even deeper dive. The very act of pressing the "start" pusher is what induces inaccuracy. And that is why I think it doesn't matter if the OP's center seconds hand may be a tad off.

The 4030 has a horizontal clutch (different than the 4130) which relies on a set of wheels arranged in the same plane.





My earlier comment about the accuracy issue is based on the problem these clutches have.

When the chronograph is not in operation, some of these wheels are still turning, while another wheel is stationary.

When the chronograph mechanism is started, using the top pusher in the side of the case, the mechanism will slide these turning wheels towards the central wheel, hence meshing the turning wheels with the one that, up until now, had been stationary.

In this moment, a stopped and a moving wheel begin to mesh, which inevitably leads to wear and tear, as well as to the backwards or forwards jump of the central chronograph seconds’ hand.

This can be observed with the naked eye and that is what I meant by saying the non-centered sweep hand doesn't really matter - the jump at the start itself leads to inaccurate timing.

Also if one wants perfection, then a more than 20 year old chrono module clutch and gears need some parts replaced.

Here is what a properly maintained Daytona Zenith 16520 looks like with the central sweep seconds at 0.00 mark.



Perfect alignment.

When the 4130 was launched, an UV-LIGA gear in a vertical clutch fixed all of that. But it was still 28,800 vph.

Nerd mode now off


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[SS Oyster]

It appears to me that your shadow on the bezel is a tad right of center, which means your photo may have been taken from the right, which would make the chronograph hand appear to be left of center based on parallax. Could that be possibly part of the issue?


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[Old Expat Beast]

I'd be happy with that, especially on a watch that old. Not worth opening it up and risking scratches (CWR has slightly scratched or dented a couple of my cases over the years) or some other issue. It's barely noticeable, even magnified.

[lusfort]

This is great! And that’s my point as well. On a precision watch meant to measure speed, although who really does use it for that.

You would think that after spending close to 2k usd, this would be addressed from
The start.

Thank you for everyone’s responses. I’m 100% certain my camera angle is spot on. It is off by perhaps 1/4 of a tick.

This is only amplified because the arrowhead of the hand dosnt cover the top of the crown completely.

I guess I have to just deal with it


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[herefortheattachment]

Same thing happened on my vintage Omega chrono…That’s well within tolerance. Welcome to owning a chronograph.

[Andad]

I don’t see an issue.

Throw the macro pix in the bin and look at it from 300mm at viewing angle.

[ratty]

To me, the minute hand appears to correctly line up with the minute marker behind it, but not with the centre of the crown. To me this would indicate that the crown is slightly out of line with the minute markers. My understanding is that the minute markers and crown / hour markers are applied at different stages of the dial’s manufacture and often do not align perfectly with each other.

I think the hand is aligned correctly with the minute markers and possibly some of the other hour markers, but the crown is a little off centre to the minute markers. I doubt that this has changed during a service unless the dial was changed.

[OG1982]

A new Rolex owner obsessing over every little detail is nothing new.

Honestly, it’s really hard to see what the problem is looking at the images you’ve supplied.

It’s a bit like the pip on bezel on my submariner, it’s ever so slightly misaligned to the left, we are talking about fractions of a mm here, but yes it annoyed me a little when I got it, and it was brand new. I realised there was no point in taking it in, as it would be within tolerance, just like this watch.

Try and enjoy it for what it is, a used watch. After all, even brand new ones are not perfect.


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[eugenetsang]

Originally Posted by OG1982

A new Rolex owner obsessing over every little detail is nothing new.

Honestly, it’s really hard to see what the problem is looking at the images you’ve supplied.

It’s a bit like the pip on bezel on my submariner, it’s ever so slightly misaligned to the left, we are talking about fractions of a mm here, but yes it annoyed me a little when I got it, and it was brand new. I realised there was no point in taking it in, as it would be within tolerance, just like this watch.

Try and enjoy it for what it is, a used watch. After all, even brand new ones are not perfect.


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But what if you bought a BRAND NEW Porsche 911. When you signed the sales contract, it stated that you're buying a new car. Not a used/CPO one. Upon receiving it, you noticed that the odometer says it has 1800 miles. Like you said, it is still "within tolerance". These cars can last forever. But would you still complain to the manager? I know what I would do.

Same with the watch. If my watch was perfectly fine.. Everything was aligned. But after spending $1000+ for service and my chrono hand comes back misaligned, that will be 100% unacceptable.

But to each their own.

[ratty]

Originally Posted by eugenetsang

…

But after spending $1000+ for service and my chrono hand comes back misaligned, that will be 100% unacceptable.

But to each their own.

As I have tried to explain above, based on the photos in the 1st post, I don’t think the chrono hand is misaligned, it’s pointing directly at the minute marker at the 12 position. I think the crown is slightly misaligned to the minute markers. It looks to be about 20 to 30 seconds out of line. I presume a dial swap is the only rectification for this.