Laurent Ferrier thoughts? Former PP watch maker?

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by dauster

maybe I am weird about these things but when I tried them they did not feel great at all compared to RO and nautilus. If it works for you great - that's all that matters

Different strokes. I love the nautilus as well. 5990 has been my grail for a while. But the RO to me looks much better than it feels.


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[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by NardinNut

I really wish the sport auto had micro adjustments. Other than that, I think they nailed that bracelet

I agree on that. Though mine fits perfectly with their half link and my wrist doesn’t vary too much. I am a little annoyed that they promised a rubber strap when they release it but still haven’t made one. Hopefully soon.


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[Oryx]

Duplicate post - please delete this one mods

[Oryx]

Originally Posted by kunlun

There's a smart way and a not smart way to understand this.

The smart way is that Laurent Ferrier and his design team are great watchmakers and came up with a movement with a natural f'ing escapement, which they then worked with La Frabrique de Temps to manufacture the mainplates and bridges, etc. and then highly finish and assemble at LF. It's possible the movement is based on a tested foundation of a movement ebauche from LFdT but expertly adapted for a natural f'ing escapement which is a huge achievement and then highly finished, assembled, etc.

The not smart way to understand is that Laruent waddles into La Frabrique du Temps showroom and points to a generic movement pre-made by them, with no work done by him whatsoever. Obviously, no one here would think that and we're not seeing kickstarter brands with generic movements bought from LFdT with a natural f'ing escapement. That would be cool, though.

Great perspective and I agree that people should develop a very well informed and rounded view based on their own experiences and perspective. When it comes to indies some of the newer collectors can be prone to buying into the marketing and then building a very one directional view and not being open to constructive input.

All brands have strengths and weaknesses. In the case of LF - Laurent was a very well respected senior employee at Patek and created a good brand and vision. However this vision has changed over time as the company has needed to become profitable in order to survive (and at one point this was a very very acute issue).

To my knowledge LF do not have any additional streams of revenue which as supplying components, dials, cases etc as some of the more commercially minded indies such as Voutilainen, Journe, Gauthier etc.

As a result my view is that they have been forced to dilute the brand by a) making too many special editions - collectors editions, retailer editions, one of ones, etc they have made so many they the concept of special editions is now diluted (they even have an internal process that is set up to make these special orders) to the level of some of the Richemont brands such as Panerai etc. b) the movements are outsourced and this is something that they are not entirely transparent on. They do refinish in house etc but again this is very different to the concept of the watch being made in house. C) finish and build quality is not at the level of others such as Voutilainen or Gauthier and I have personally compared all of them in the flesh. The finishing is good and almost at the level of Lange but it’s far from perfect and I’ve seen a number off issues and flaws that I wouldn’t be happy about if it was my own watch.

Rather than running the risk of having a myopic view based on a strong affinity to one brand - I would recommend any collector to educate themselves, try the watches on, speak with other collectors and meet the figureheads of each of the brands (ideally along with a visit to the manufacture).

The world of indies is very opaque and nuanced and not everything is as it first seems. It is very difficult to create a manufacture that is truely integrated and impossible to avoid the use of CNC machined parts, even the design of the movements is outsourced by a lot of brands.

I myself have learnt a lot from some of the very smart and well established collectors (brand marketing, articles from respected watch joirnalists etc are prone to conflicts or littered with factual inaccuracies) and fully respect their views and different perspectives. Its very dangerous to patronise others without having any appreciation of their level of diligence or expertise.

Anyone thinking about LF should really consider all of their options at that price point before making a decision. The secondary market can also be an additional source of intelligence / indication of the and demand dynamic for each of the brands.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Oryx

Great perspective and I agree that people should develop a very well informed and rounded view based on their own experiences and perspective. When it comes to indies some of the newer collectors can be prone to buying into the marketing and then building a very one directional view and not being open to constructive input.

All brands have strengths and weaknesses. In the case of LF - Laurent was a very well respected senior employee at Patek and created a good brand and vision. However this vision has changed over time as the company has needed to become profitable in order to survive (and at one point this was a very very acute issue).

To my knowledge LF do not have any additional streams of revenue which as supplying components, dials, cases etc as some of the more commercially minded indies such as Voutilainen, Journe, Gauthier etc.

As a result my view is that they have been forced to dilute the brand by a) making too many special editions - collectors editions, retailer editions, one of ones, etc they have made so many they the concept of special editions is now diluted (they even have an internal process that is set up to make these special orders) to the level of some of the Richemont brands such as Panerai etc. b) the movements are outsourced and this is something that they are not entirely transparent on. They do refinish in house etc but again this is very different to the concept of the watch being made in house. C) finish and build quality is not at the level of others such as Voutilainen or Gauthier and I have personally compared all of them in the flesh. The finishing is good and almost at the level of Lange but it’s far from perfect and I’ve seen a number off issues and flaws that I wouldn’t be happy about if it was my own watch.

Rather than running the risk of having a myopic view based on a strong affinity to one brand - I would recommend any collector to educate themselves, try the watches on, speak with other collectors and meet the figureheads of each of the brands (ideally along with a visit to the manufacture).

The world of indies is very opaque and nuanced and not everything is as it first seems. It is very difficult to create a manufacture that is truely integrated and impossible to avoid the use of CNC machined parts, even the design of the movements is outsourced by a lot of brands.

I myself have learnt a lot from some of the very smart and well established collectors (brand marketing, articles from respected watch joirnalists etc are prone to conflicts or littered with factual inaccuracies) and fully respect their views and different perspectives. Its very dangerous to patronise others without having any appreciation of their level of diligence or expertise.

Anyone thinking about LF should really consider all of their options at that price point before making a decision. The secondary market can also be an additional source of intelligence / indication of the and demand dynamic for each of the brands.

I really appreciate that you've shared such a well considered take here--it's a pleasure to read.

Just as you suggest, I'd highly recommend each person discover their own values and taste through reading widely, trying on the watches, speaking to watchmakers, and visiting manufactures (although this is dangerous as you may end up making a deposit on a watch!). Understanding the history and current state of a brand, it's competition and value proposition all give us a persepctive and can help us appreciate whether we want a watch on our wrist or not.

Ultimately, sometimes you love a watch and I'd say that's more important than anything.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Oryx

Great perspective and I agree that people should develop a very well informed and rounded view based on their own experiences and perspective. When it comes to indies some of the newer collectors can be prone to buying into the marketing and then building a very one directional view and not being open to constructive input.

All brands have strengths and weaknesses. In the case of LF - Laurent was a very well respected senior employee at Patek and created a good brand and vision. However this vision has changed over time as the company has needed to become profitable in order to survive (and at one point this was a very very acute issue).

To my knowledge LF do not have any additional streams of revenue which as supplying components, dials, cases etc as some of the more commercially minded indies such as Voutilainen, Journe, Gauthier etc.

As a result my view is that they have been forced to dilute the brand by a) making too many special editions - collectors editions, retailer editions, one of ones, etc they have made so many they the concept of special editions is now diluted (they even have an internal process that is set up to make these special orders) to the level of some of the Richemont brands such as Panerai etc. b) the movements are outsourced and this is something that they are not entirely transparent on. They do refinish in house etc but again this is very different to the concept of the watch being made in house. C) finish and build quality is not at the level of others such as Voutilainen or Gauthier and I have personally compared all of them in the flesh. The finishing is good and almost at the level of Lange but it’s far from perfect and I’ve seen a number off issues and flaws that I wouldn’t be happy about if it was my own watch.

Rather than running the risk of having a myopic view based on a strong affinity to one brand - I would recommend any collector to educate themselves, try the watches on, speak with other collectors and meet the figureheads of each of the brands (ideally along with a visit to the manufacture).

The world of indies is very opaque and nuanced and not everything is as it first seems. It is very difficult to create a manufacture that is truely integrated and impossible to avoid the use of CNC machined parts, even the design of the movements is outsourced by a lot of brands.

I myself have learnt a lot from some of the very smart and well established collectors (brand marketing, articles from respected watch joirnalists etc are prone to conflicts or littered with factual inaccuracies) and fully respect their views and different perspectives. Its very dangerous to patronise others without having any appreciation of their level of diligence or expertise.

Anyone thinking about LF should really consider all of their options at that price point before making a decision. The secondary market can also be an additional source of intelligence / indication of the and demand dynamic for each of the brands.

Impressive post length and written in nice prose. But I question your homespun philosophies on this one. So here are mine:

I haven’t seen a remarkable change in vision (as you mention) over the past 15 years of LF. Same great quality, same design language, and only small evolutions over time. All companies make some changes to “become more profitable” so I’m not sure what your point is with that. If you were trying to imply that they in some way sacrificed their vision or quality to become more profitable, I’m unaware of anything specific. To the contrary I have seen them develop new movements and models over the course of their existence that both advance horology and stay true to their design language (natural escapement and sport auto are examples on both fronts). I agree with your general thought that no brand is perfect, just not how you are applying it in this case.

There is also a distinction in this concept of “dilution” when it comes to limited editions. I might agree that any particular limited edition itself could be less special (ie diluted) in terms of secondary value if there are a ton of other limited editions. But it only applies to that particular limited edition model… it doesn’t dilute “the brand” generally. Besides, if the watch is cool, it’s cool. As a collector who wears cool watches, I couldn’t care less about secondary value, so why would I care in a particular limited edition is diluted?

Even if limited edition models did “dilute” an entire brand, it’s not an apples to apples comparison between a brand like Omega and a brand like LF. Omega produces 500,000 watches per year. Their limited editions typically range between a few hundred to a few thousand pieces. LF makes about 300 watches per year total. When they do a limited edition, it’s like 10 pieces. LFs entire annual production is a limited edition when compared to Omega.

Lastly, I’ll take your opinions on finishing quality as compared to the other brands you mentioned at face value. This is not something I’m particularly passionate about once you get past a certain threshold. I find those nuances to be mostly subjective and always of diminishing returns in terms of value and enjoyment.


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[Oryx]

Great individual perspective - thanks for sharing.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Oryx

Great individual perspective - thanks for sharing.

Absolutely. Yours as well.