Is there a stigma attached to owning Apple products?

[daveathall]

You should be complimented about your English, it is very good, if I came across in any other way I apologise, it was not my intent.

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning with regards to apple products, we should agree to disagree, your bad experience possibly tainted your view.

[speedo]

Absolutely not. In fact i am typing this onmy iphone. I know that most products will definitely break down in a short time. But even if i accept this i can't understand being a fanboy of it. Apple made marketing around a product that in my opinion does not deserv fanatism.

[Speed]

Originally Posted by speedo

i guess planned obsolescence is done by pc companies as well, i did not say that it only affected macs. the only difference is that i do not hear about dell or toshiba fanboys. a computer is a tool to be used for a limited period, so just like in case of a toaster i do not see the reason for a hype. that is what i said noting more.

Truth is...I don't think you will find many Dell or Toshiba fan boys...I could be wrong. These products do not breed enthusiasts. You are VERY correct. These folks look at PCs like tools or toilet paper...or toasters. Just do the limited functions I want and that's the end of it.

What I find bloody hard to believe is at a site like TRF where most folks are Rolex Fan Boys (like me - save for certain folks who stop by to mix it up) that there is such difficulty comprehending the affinity for - and $$$ PREMIUM commanded by - Apple products.

You do realize you have just illustrated very adroitly what non-WIS say about watches....they are just inanimate objects (Tools) used to tell time. Not worthy of hype...therefore a CASIO, Timex or Mobile Phone clock will do. Why spend thousands on a steel watch that does what a Swatch watch will do?

Does anyone else see the delicious irony here?

[Atl]

Originally Posted by masterserg

I use both as well. Apple provides a much more enjoyable experience for me. Besides, their customer service is second to none.

Seven years in a row, Apple is rated #1 by either: JD Power, Consumer reports, or both, as to customer service/customer satisfaction, and you don't have to bother with virus protection and having to update it constantly, and it does not take 5 minutes to boot up.

Have to use Windows 7 at work, which is actually pretty good, but it's Macs at home, no PC's. Our server got a virus this past week, and we were without our computers for two days, even with the virus protection. My Macs have never gotten a virus in 9 years, and going thru the various versions of Apple's OS-X. But a lot of software still is not available for Mac, which is frustrating.

[speedo]

Originally Posted by Speed

You do realize you have just illustrated very adroitly what non-WIS say about watches....they are just inanimate objects (Tools) used to tell time. Not worthy of hype...therefore a CASIO, Timex or Mobile Phone clock will do. Why spend thousands on a steel watch that does what a Swatch watch will do?

Does anyone else see the delicious irony here?

Can't speak for others but my love for watches and especially for rolex comes from two factors: in 2011 unlike a computer or a cell phone a mechanical watch is not just a useful object exactly for the reasons you just mentioned. Secondly i know that with proper maintenance it will be an object i can give to my son after enjoying it for decades. Lately this has been very important to me. You can't really name many affordable objects able to do that besides jewellery which i am not a big fan of.

[Speed]

Originally Posted by speedo

Can't speak for others but my love for watches and especially for rolex comes from two factors: in 2011 unlike a computer or a cell phone a mechanical watch is not just a useful object exactly for the reasons you just mentioned. Secondly i know that with proper maintenance it will be an object i can give to my son after enjoying it for decades and lately it gives me an enormous joy. You can't really name many affordable objects able to do that besides jewellery which i am not a big fan of.

I think you are spot on. I like Rolex for the same reasons. I have a 5-month-old son who seems to like grabbing my watches whilst I hold him. I think he is angling for them already.

However, I do LOVE / appreciate the design, form, function and reliability of Apple hardware and much compatible software...and I will pay a premium for the foregoing. I also like building PCs from scratch...for the sheer pleasure I get out of using high-end components of my choice and playing high-end games.

[Gagebuilder]

Originally Posted by Speed

Wait...You have a PC...and NEVER had a problem? Which OS, what do you do with your PC besides turn it on. Never had a Blue Screen of Death? Come on...surely you jest. You don't ever install applications, try to configure with peripherals? Don't play games?

Does a Rolex Submariner tell time TWICE as good as a CASIO G-Shock or Tag? Come on...with Apple, you are paying for design aesthetic, a UI which is more thought out and and beautiful / elegant and FAR LESS PROBLEMATIC THAN A PC.

No one will convince you to buy a Mac if you don't appreciate the thought and nuances put into the design which lead to a better user experience. Much like no one will convince anyone in the myriad of Rolex Vs. Omega threads we see in other sections of this forum.

You ask a lot of questions. No blue screens here. I've played FarCry to Call of Duty to Crysis and others without issue, rarely play anymore. Lost interest. Apps., standard processing stuff, pictures whatever.


"if you don't appreciate the thought and nuances" this is my point. What is so great about it. Or do I need to conduct a $1000+ experiment to find out, because it has to be seen to be believed? I just asked a question, nobody I know has a mac, so, no, I don't know jack about them.

Oh, and I don't own a Sub., but I do own a Casio.I'm more of a GMT guy. Watches aren't the same. I only ever met one person with a "collection" of computers. He was quite strange.Also, if I sold my watches today, I would not lose a nickel. Computers are a throw away item, they cost more to fix than replace.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by speedo

Can't speak for others but my love for watches and especially for rolex comes from two factors: in 2011 unlike a computer or a cell phone a mechanical watch is not just a useful object exactly for the reasons you just mentioned. Secondly i know that with proper maintenance it will be an object i can give to my son after enjoying it for decades. Lately this has been very important to me. You can't really name many affordable objects able to do that besides jewellery which i am not a big fan of.

Originally Posted by Speed

I think you are spot on. I like Rolex for the same reasons. I have a 5-month-old son who seems to like grabbing my watches whilst I hold him. I think he is angling for them already.

However, I do LOVE / appreciate the design, form, function and reliability of Apple hardware and much compatible software...and I will pay a premium for the foregoing. I also like building PCs from scratch...for the sheer pleasure I get out of using high-end components of my choice and playing high-end games.

I agree.

I have a 35 year old son, nothing gives me more pleasure than seeing him wear the watch I gave him years ago, both of you have young sons, you have many joyous days to come, giving them your watch will be one of the high lights.

[Gagebuilder]

I don't get it. Why are the superior benefits of Apple so hard to explain?

[CashGap]

Originally Posted by Gagebuilder

I don't get it. Why are the superior benefits of Apple so hard to explain?

No explanations are accepted by folks who have already decided.

You can show them a $999 Macbook Air and a plastic $999 Dell and they'll say "See, Macs are more expensive. People are paying for the name." "But... but... they cost the SAME! And with the Dell you have to use Windows, that's worth $100 at least to avoid! And there's a $500 resale differential in twelve months!".

The response will be a smug "You're overpaying because you are stupid. Plus I heard back in the 90's there wasn't a right click."

That's an unwinnable argument.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by Gagebuilder

I don't get it. Why are the superior benefits of Apple so hard to explain?

To me, I don't get why Apple is perceived to be superior to other brands. I use Apple products and I really don't see what the fuss is about vs. other products. Their customer service is similar to other products I deal with, maybe the only difference is that they now have stores so you can deal with them physically. As for quality, it is also similar to other products in the same price range.

[speedo]

Originally Posted by CashGap

No explanations are accepted by folks who have already decided.

You can show them a $999 Macbook Air and a plastic $999 Dell and they'll say "See, Macs are more expensive. People are paying for the name." "But... but... they cost the SAME! And with the Dell you have to use Windows, that's worth $100 at least to avoid! And there's a $500 resale differential in twelve months!".

The response will be a smug "You're overpaying because you are stupid. Plus I heard back in the 90's there wasn't a right click."

That's an unwinnable argument.

it might be the case in the us but here the cheapest mac air (MacBook Air 11" i5 1.6 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD) is 1.500,-usd, (999,-usd in the states) the most expensive (MacBook Air 13" i5 1.7 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD) is almost 2.500,-usd (1.600,-usd in the states). and for this you can buy a pc twice as good as the mac.

[Ed Rooney]

I know a couple who both have iphone4's. They are eligible for upgrade on November 10th. So if they get 64Gig iphone4s' on release date, they pay something like $800. If they wait a month they get them for $399.

Guess when they are getting their iphones.

[Ed Rooney]

Originally Posted by speedo

it might be the case in the us but here the cheapest mac air (MacBook Air 11" i5 1.6 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD) is 1.500,-usd, (999,-usd in the states) the most expensive (MacBook Air 13" i5 1.7 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD) is almost 2.500,-usd (1.600,-usd in the states). and for this you can buy a pc twice as good as the mac.

Once you add the ssd to your PC it gets quite expensive. Also you are paying for portability. I can go to Sam's club and get cheap 17" windows laptops all day for $499, but they weigh a ton, have 5400rpm sata drives and are loaded with bloatware. Go price 12" super-thin Sony laptops and you will see the price is much closer.

[meloncap78]

Originally Posted by Dan2010

You can run Microsoft Excel, Word, etc, but you have to use a special Windows set up for Mac and that kinda defeats the purpose of owning a Mac if you are still going to run Windows in the background. The business world is 99% Windows. I have found more artistic/musical type people use Mac's for their business because of its superior graphics and software for this kind of work.

Microsoft released office for MAC awhile back. It runs natively on OS.

[subtona]

2 types of people, those that have used and now own an apple computer
and those that have no idea how an actual computer should operate.

there is just no comparison. none!

thank you Steve Jobs.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Gagebuilder

I don't get it. Why are the superior benefits of Apple so hard to explain?

the apple is intuitive... made by people for people to use.

if you can think it, it has been thunk before and is ready to be done, just find the correct command ... this gets easier after you've been debriefed from windows barbed wire OS.

apple is simpler, the process is often actually pt A to pt B vs the other OS which may entail so much more processing (which has been hidden pretty well over the years, but it takes more effort and slows things down and complicates simple actions to the point of fowling up the simplest process)

for me the $$$ of 1 vs the other was never a thought as they are two entirely different products, the term apples and oranges lives here.
and in this analogy the orange is a square wheel.

[speedo]

Originally Posted by Ed Rooney

Once you add the ssd to your PC it gets quite expensive. Also you are paying for portability. I can go to Sam's club and get cheap 17" windows laptops all day for $499, but they weigh a ton, have 5400rpm sata drives and are loaded with bloatware. Go price 12" super-thin Sony laptops and you will see the price is much closer.

i bought a toshiba with the lot and it cost me 1.000,-usd. and it works just fine. and i am very far from being a geek.
have a friend designing shops, interiors. he bought a mac because he had to look trendy and uptodate when going to a presentation at his clients' he likes it and i know that macs are good but this illustrates clearly the "stigma" attached.

[kultschar]

Used to work in IT so to be honest I'm a bit of a computer geek, Apple products are pretty damn awesome and I long abandoned windows however use MS Office Mac Version for my work (which is fantastic)

Everything is so simplified, forgot Viruses existed, no searching for settings thru multiple menus etc it really makes it a pleasure to use. Unfortunately on the odd occasion I have to work on a Windows 7 machine in the office, its weird but I actually dread turning that machine on.

Of course visually the product and design is stunning which is prob the first thing you will notice when you buy an Apple product, I guess this is a bit like having a Rolex. My Girlfriend bought me a Macbook Air for my 30th when they first came out many years back now. It was pretty surreal at the time unboxing the worlds thinnest notebook which was a beautiful slab of aluminium compared to my plastic Sony Vaio.

Many of my friends think I'm mad buying Apple desktops and laptops instead of a $300 plastic laptop - maybe they are right however I could never go back.

Maintenance free and a joy to use. If I was a casual web surfer then maybe a PC would be the way, I would never recommend an Apple computer to the casual Facebook / eBayer etc however I spend half my life in front of a computer so I guess it makes sense to buy something good.

Oh yeah - the resale value on Macs are pretty damn good!! My old Macbook Air sold for half what was paid for it 3 years after!!! A PC is worthless after a few years!!!

Its all personal choice at the end of the day - I suppose its a bit like the Omega V Rolex argument however of course there is a stigma attached to Apple products due to the success. I have quite a few friends who have iPhones who has since bought iMacs, MacBooks etc the Halo effect as such however they all complain when they have to work on PCs in an office!!!

[kultschar]

Originally Posted by subtona

the apple is intuitive... made by people for people to use.

apple is simpler, the process is often actually pt A to pt B vs the other OS which may entail so much more processing (which has been hidden pretty well over the years, but it takes more effort and slows things down and complicates simple actions to the point of fowling up the simplest process)

This is as close to the truth as you can get. Take the settings of a Mac vs Control Panel of a PC. The amount of bloated crap that you have to click thru to check something out on a Windows machine is pretty unreal and often hidden to the "average" user. Working in IT support for many years the amount of basic troubleshooting tasks I had for users unable to find this or that was ridiculous.

With a Mac everything is logical, uncluttered and obvious. Although simplified over the last few years setting up a home network on a Windows machine was not a task for the "normal" user and was one of the common call outs I used to have.

[kultschar]

Originally Posted by meloncap78

Microsoft released office for MAC awhile back. It runs natively on OS.

Too right!! Been using Office on a Mac for years!!!!! Doubt this will change as it is of course the standard

[mboverst]

[Ed Rooney]

Originally Posted by kultschar

This is as close to the truth as you can get. Take the settings of a Mac vs Control Panel of a PC. The amount of bloated crap that you have to click thru to check something out on a Windows machine is pretty unreal and often hidden to the "average" user. Working in IT support for many years the amount of basic troubleshooting tasks I had for users unable to find this or that was ridiculous.

With a Mac everything is logical, uncluttered and obvious. Although simplified over the last few years setting up a home network on a Windows machine was not a task for the "normal" user and was one of the common call outs I used to have.

I don't know about that. Both Mac and Windows have a "control panel" where one adjust the settings for their network, mouse, printers or whatever.

Windows has "Start" on the taskbar. Mac has "Go" in finder. They both have user folders for docs, music, pics, etc.

I think dealing with drive mappings is more intuitive in Windows. Just go to where the drives are and select map network drive. In Mac, you go to "Go", then mount drives. I'd rather mount drives the Windows way. Neither one is very intuitive because the average computer (mac or pc) just knows how to start their browser and email.

If you want to do any command line stuff it's Dos commands vs unix commands. Nothing intuitive about either one.

You can say Mac is more stable, but I just crashed a macbook air about ten minutes ago, whereas I rarely crash a pc.

The funny part is when mac users feel like they just discovered something different and new and decide to tell the IT department what they are doing wrong.

[CashGap]

Originally Posted by Ed Rooney

If you want to do any command line stuff it's Dos commands vs unix commands. Nothing intuitive about either one.

True. Though the unix commands are LOGICAL, and the DOS commands much less so.

Originally Posted by Ed Rooney

You can say Mac is more stable, but I just crashed a macbook air about ten minutes ago, whereas I rarely crash a pc.

Er... I'll take Fallacy of Hasty Generalization for $500 Alex?

Originally Posted by Ed Rooney

The funny part is when mac users feel like they just discovered something different and new and decide to tell the IT department what they are doing wrong.

Condescending mockery will usually silence them for a while.

[rolio]

"The most dangerous thing to any society, in any part of the world, is Fanaticism."

[Gagebuilder]

Thanks for some specific answers, guys.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by meloncap78

Microsoft released office for MAC awhile back. It runs natively on OS.

To me, Office on Mac is fine for normal users rather than hardcore Office users. Last time I checked out Office for Mac, functions for Excel was lacking.

But for simple to intermediate stuff, Office for Mac is fine.

[Ed Rooney]

Originally Posted by CashGap

True. Though the unix commands are LOGICAL, and the DOS commands much less so.

Example?

Originally Posted by CashGap

Er... I'll take Fallacy of Hasty Generalization for $500 Alex?

But I though macs don't crash or get viruses.

Originally Posted by CashGap

Condescending mockery will usually silence them for a while.

That was almost my username here on TRF.


I'm still waiting to hear how your company of 500 computer experts will get their Macs on the network at their new HQ.

[CashGap]

Originally Posted by Ed Rooney

Example?

But I though macs don't crash or get viruses.

That was almost my username here on TRF.

I'm still waiting to hear how your company of 500 computer experts will get their Macs on the network at their new HQ.

You can either write your own examples of logical unix and illogical DOS commands, or you won't comprehend mine. So what does it matter? You've used both and you immediately know what I mean, or we'd be starting at "ls -l | grep root | more" and there are better tutors than me!!!

No one said Macs don't crash or get viruses, although as you know both are FAR less frequent on Macs, to the point that almost no Mac user runs AV as the benefit doesn't outweigh the performance hit. But you know that.

You have 500 computer experts that can't plug in a CAT6 cable? Bigger problem than I can handle. As you know, there is no connectivity challenge. And of course while I hope you do get to delegate assignments to the CFO someday, today ain't the day if I'm involved :)

If I were a plumber, I would DESPISE the new "PEX" products. They just work. Run the red and blue pipes, install the fittings, and ignore it for 100 years. As a plumber, I'd be tempted to bad-mouth that stuff like no tomorrow. Copper and PVC is where it is at. Gotta have something familiar and trusted that requires LOTS of plumbing service. We've created an IT priesthood of plumber-level skills that once commanded premium salaries by withholding information from users. You've made no secret of your contempt for your users, and your opinion of their efforts to be self-sufficient. I understand. With PEX they don't need plumbers.

But you knew this.

[Ed Rooney]

Originally Posted by CashGap

You can either write your own examples of logical unix and illogical DOS commands, or you won't comprehend mine. So what does it matter? You've used both and you immediately know what I mean, or we'd be starting at "ls -l | grep root | more" and there are better tutors than me!!!

No one said Macs don't crash or get viruses, although as you know both are FAR less frequent on Macs, to the point that almost no Mac user runs AV as the benefit doesn't outweigh the performance hit. But you know that.

You have 500 computer experts that can't plug in a CAT6 cable? Bigger problem than I can handle. As you know, there is no connectivity challenge. And of course while I hope you do get to delegate assignments to the CFO someday, today ain't the day if I'm involved :)

If I were a plumber, I would DESPISE the new "PEX" products. They just work. Run the red and blue pipes, install the fittings, and ignore it for 100 years. As a plumber, I'd be tempted to bad-mouth that stuff like no tomorrow. Copper and PVC is where it is at. Gotta have something familiar and trusted that requires LOTS of plumbing service. We've created an IT priesthood of plumber-level skills that once commanded premium salaries by withholding information from users. You've made no secret of your contempt for your users, and your opinion of their efforts to be self-sufficient. I understand. With PEX they don't need plumbers.

But you knew this.

Again, you are only scratching the surface of what goes on in IT. It's clear that you just don't know what you don't know. It's also clear that no one can tell you anything.

So let's continue finding out what you don't know.

It's not plugging in that's a challenge. What I don't get is what happens when the users plug in their cat 6 cables. Is there something in the walls that somehow gets data to and from your SaaS companies who are going to do everything for you? Is everyone on a Linksys or something?

Who designed the structured cabling? Who configured the lan switches, routers and firewalls? What happens when the internet goes down? What happens when Fritz in the marketing department buys a macbook air with no ethernet port? Who set up the wireless infrastructure? I'm sure you did great with your Airport Extreme, but a campus wifi implementation where you can roam without dropping packets is a little more complex. I've yet to find a single accountant capable of configuring BGP. Do you have an email infrastructure or are you going with a hosted solution? 500 people connected to hosted email, ERP, CRM use a lot of bandwidth. How are users authenticating to shared network resources? How are they authenticating to your SaaS providers, for that matter. Most SaaS vendors use Secure LDAP to authenticate the customer, but do you have anyone capable of setting up directory services? If there are branches or stores, who set up your WAN? Who manages point of sale? Remember, this is an IT-free company, so you can't even outsource the network engineering or DBA talent. Teksystems or whoever will just come in and mock you condescendingly, while charging double what you would pay for in-house IT.

I've actually done this project, but on a larger scale (a large retailer sold off from a ginormous retailer), so I'm not cheating by asking you how to do it. I just want to know if you actually do know it all.