Ray Rice and Kurt Busch

[dddrees]

Things have changed.


I think this is for the better, and I do think there will be other changes for the better too with regards to how domestic violence is viewed and treated.

[Dyim]

I have no respect for those guys and I don't care how well they do their job.

[mtrunner]

Unless your Mayweather. He has been convicted multiple times with assaulting women but still makes millions upon millions still boxing. It's disgusting.

Anyone who lays a finger on a woman is a coward and should be dealt with accordingly.

[incontrol]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

Unless your Mayweather. He has been convicted multiple times with assaulting women but still makes millions upon millions still boxing. It's disgusting.

Anyone who lays a finger on a woman is a coward and should be dealt with accordingly.

Agree!

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

Unless your Mayweather. He has been convicted multiple times with assaulting women but still makes millions upon millions still boxing. It's disgusting.

Anyone who lays a finger on a woman is a coward and should be dealt with accordingly.

Yes, but the key is

Does he have sponsors and has he been caught at it since the Ray Rice incident?

[otisc]

They could have at least waited until Kurt Busch was charged with a crime. As it is, the judge said there was a "preponderance of evidence" he smacked her. I'm not defending him, because he's a well-known jerk, but anyone who knows anything about law knows how low of a standard that is. The whole story is so convoluted with huge discrepancies in both sides' stories, and her waiting weeks and weeks before even reporting the incident... I doubt there is any jury in the world who could legitimately agree unanimously that he met a real standard -- "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- that he abused her. I don't the the DA is going to file charges, and if he does, I don't think he will get a conviction. Should a guy's career be ruined on so little? I'm just not sure.

[GradyPhilpott]

I think in the case of Kurt Busch, NASCAR's response was cowardly and I don't even like Kurt.

Kurt is a first-class jerk, but I have my doubts about the case against him and apparently, so does the DA.

However, it's not Kurt's situation that concerns me as much as Kyle's.

He's my favorite driver and he's as much a victim of NASCAR's lack of backbone as Kurt.

[bdex75]

Originally Posted by otisc

They could have at least waited until Kurt Busch was charged with a crime. As it is, the judge said there was a "preponderance of evidence" he smacked her. I'm not defending him, because he's a well-known jerk, but anyone who knows anything about law knows how low of a standard that is. The whole story is so convoluted with huge discrepancies in both sides' stories, and her waiting weeks and weeks before even reporting the incident... I doubt there is any jury in the world who could legitimately agree unanimously that he met a real standard -- "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- that he abused her. I don't the the DA is going to file charges, and if he does, I don't think he will get a conviction. Should a guy's career be ruined on so little? I'm just not sure.

What I think was the most odd part of the whole family court hearing that I heard, was that the judge basically said that when two people that were in the same place at the same time come to you, under oath, and tell two so completely different stories you have to choose who and what to believe.

I think the common side to the stories were, he was there, she was there and they had a heated argument. She waited so long to go to the police there were no injuries. She is a whack job mentally (have you seen the videos of her running one of her many defense contractor companies?). He is a hot head with a history of blowing up on people.

I have no doubt that they probably beat the crap out of each other. Just so happens that, today, the law never favors any man in this situation, no matter what. It is like sexual harassment, go work at a big company and have a female employee claim that a male co-worker or supervisor sexually harassed her they are guilty until proven innocent.

I have been a Tony Stewart fan for 15+ years. Back to his Indy car and winged sprint days in central Indiana. I am a fan of Kyle and Kurt Busch's talent and they both got a raw deal last weekend. NASCAR should not have suspended Kurt until he was charged with a crime. And speaking of crimes someone at NASCAR should be charged for not having safer barriers on every concrete surface that a car could run into at 200 mph.

The difference between this and the Ray Rice case is that there was video of him cold cocking his fiancé and knocking her unconscious. Kurt was a he said/she said and somewhere in the middle is the truth. Kind of like a divorce.


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[jandr272]

Originally Posted by bdex75

I have no doubt that they probably beat the crap out of each other. Just so happens that, today, the law never favors any man in this situation, no matter what. It is like sexual harassment, go work at a big company and have a female employee claim that a male co-worker or supervisor sexually harassed her they are guilty until proven innocent.

I see your point, but also disagree. The law doesn't favor men, because statistically, women are the ones who get murdered by their spouse or significant other at much, much higher rates. Instances like this, where it is word against word, and only ends up with a protective order because there isn't enough evidence to convict (especially with his high dollar lawyers). I'm sure in some cases it ends up being CYA for the court, in other cases both spouses are whack jobs that should be allowed to pummel each other if desired, but there is a reason for the shift in how these cases are handled over the past decade.

I say all this knowing that it is possible my wife could likely get a protective order against me on her word only, banning me from my own house and kids, and putting my job in jeopardy... IF she talked to the right magistrate on the right night.

I worked for the police department for three years as a 911 operator, and I'm sure that for every "I know he got warrants cuz he hit me last week and we fightin' again" BS there are a lot of women who are honestly fearing for their lives, and any recourse, no matter how small, is necessary.

[bdex75]

Originally Posted by jandr272

I see your point, but also disagree. The law doesn't favor men, because statistically, women are the ones who get murdered by their spouse or significant other at much, much higher rates. Instances like this, where it is word against word, and only ends up with a protective order because there isn't enough evidence to convict (especially with his high dollar lawyers). I'm sure in some cases it ends up being CYA for the court, in other cases both spouses are whack jobs that should be allowed to pummel each other if desired, but there is a reason for the shift in how these cases are handled over the past decade.

I say all this knowing that it is possible my wife could likely get a protective order against me on her word only, banning me from my own house and kids, and putting my job in jeopardy... IF she talked to the right magistrate on the right night.

I worked for the police department for three years as a 911 operator, and I'm sure that for every "I know he got warrants cuz he hit me last week and we fightin' again" BS there are a lot of women who are honestly fearing for their lives, and any recourse, no matter how small, is necessary.

I agree with all of that. In this case her seeking a protection order is likely 100% a move to cause him public harm and put his career in jeopardy. I wonder if he could have/did file for a similar order since according to Kurt and his people she is a "trained assassin".


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[jandr272]

Originally Posted by bdex75

I agree with all of that. In this case her seeking a protection order is likely 100% a move to cause him public harm and put his career in jeopardy. I wonder if he could have/did file for a similar order since according to Kurt and his people she is a "trained assassin".


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It is completely dependent on the judge/magistrate; there is a lot of room for discretion because this sort of thing is rarely black and white.

I do think the penalties for perjuring oneself to get a protective order should be stern. I can also see an argument against that because could potentially deter victims from seeking one. The whole issue is so complicated, because you have cases where there is absolutely no danger and everything is done... and then cases where there is true risk of life a victim is told 'nothing we can do' over and over until they are actually killed, sometimes along with others like kids.

In cases like this, you may be right, it is all about the publicity.

[bdex75]

To get it somewhat back on track. I think everyone on here would agree that any man that physically assaults a woman is a total douchè canoe and has no place in a civilized society.

I think that NASCAR jumped the gun on suspending Kurt since he has not even been charged with a crime and there is no indisputable physical evidence that we know if to support her claims. It is a she said/he said and the truth is likely in the middle.


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[Chewbacca]

if KB is guilty for what is reported - he's a POS but this now sets the bar for nascar on domestic abuse - which is a good thing.

but the KB decision is also nascar looking after nascar imo.

and, broadcasters.

and, sponsors.

and, teams.

and, manufacturers.

and, well, you get the picture. they're a business.



PS

nascar has about 8 permanently suspended drivers for legal convictions ranging from substance abuse to vehicular homicide.

this is the first ban for an allegation of domestic abuse from what i could find.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by otisc

They could have at least waited until Kurt Busch was charged with a crime. As it is, the judge said there was a "preponderance of evidence" he smacked her. I'm not defending him, because he's a well-known jerk, but anyone who knows anything about law knows how low of a standard that is. The whole story is so convoluted with huge discrepancies in both sides' stories, and her waiting weeks and weeks before even reporting the incident... I doubt there is any jury in the world who could legitimately agree unanimously that he met a real standard -- "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- that he abused her. I don't the the DA is going to file charges, and if he does, I don't think he will get a conviction. Should a guy's career be ruined on so little? I'm just not sure.

Actually I didn't hear this before posting. The media outlet I listened to at the time only reported that a judge ruled against him. I jumped the gun without having all of the facts and now I feel real bad for posting this thread to begin with. I goofed big time.

However regardless of how this post may look I do believe that we need to be patient and let the judicial system handle these matters first. Everybody should be presumed innocent until found guilty. I actually find it unfortunate that it appears in todays climate the big sports agencies and their sponsors they don't believe they can afford to handle it that way.

I also find it unfortunate that state laws vary to such a large degree in how these cases are handled in the first place.

[Presa canary]

I hope NASCAR fans get to sit through the same depressing commercials shown non stop on NFL commercials.

[dba]

Having been a cop for twenty years and a detective specifically assigned to investigate domestic violence for a while, I have a little bit of experience in this arena.

Ever since one ex-football player allegedly killed his ex-wife, domestic violence has been in the forefront of police departments around the country. Not too much attention was paid to it as a lot of people considered it a personal matter between spouses/partners. And let’s face it, whenever the police get involved in people’s lives; people’s lives get complicated.

Having said that, the laws now take a lot of decision making away from the victims, the cops, the lawyers and the judges. Some type of action, (arrest, TRO, counseling, firearms seizure) is now mandatory. In almost every case.

I can’t even remotely remember how many times I heard a victim tell me that he/she got hit by his/her spouse three weeks ago during an argument while I’m investigating yet another fight today. What I found is that stripes very rarely change. If a spouse/partner hits the other spouse/partner, chances are that behavior will not stop.

From what I’ve read about the Busch incident, it doesn’t seem to pass what we as cops would call the smell test. When a victim comes forward weeks after an alleged incident without any evidence to provide foundation for the accusation; that victim’s actions appear very suspect.

There is supposed to be a presumption of innocence in this country. Unfortunately, I think that time has passed. It seems everyone likes to see the rich and famous being taken down. The judge in the Busch incident didn’t have to sign a protective order. Even if Busch later killed this woman, the judge would not, could not have, been held liable. However in this media crazed times we live in, a judge that doesn’t sign a protective order will be held to account unless he/she’s a presidential or gubernatorial appointee.

[GradyPhilpott]

Prosecutors: No charges for NASCAR driver Kurt Busch

So, now what, you NASCAR schmucks?

[mtrunner]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Prosecutors: No charges for NASCAR driver Kurt Busch

So, now what, you NASCAR schmucks?

No one knows what exactly happened and if he did hit her his time will come but if there is not enough evidence to prosecute and he is not being charged how can NASCAR suspend him indefinitely?

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

...if there is not enough evidence to prosecute and he is not being charged how can NASCAR suspend him indefinitely?

The bigger questions is, why was he suspended at all?

There's not even enough evidence to present to a grand jury and you know what they say about grand juries and ham sandwiches.

I'd sue their socks off if it were me.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

The bigger questions is, why was he suspended at all?

There's not even enough evidence to present to a grand jury and you know what they say about grand juries and ham sandwiches.

I'd sue their socks off if it were me.

He probably will, in fact to save face if nothing else he'll almost have to.

In the end it'll still probably cost NASCAR less money this way.

[77T]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Prosecutors: No charges for NASCAR driver Kurt Busch

So, now what, you NASCAR schmucks?

Why not tell us how you really feel, Grady?

NASCAR handled it badly and I think the majority of comments here agreed they jumped the gun.

The smarter guys there don't have the power (yet) to make better decisions become reality.

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by 77T

Why not tell us how you really feel, Grady?

Originally Posted by 77T

NASCAR handled it badly and I think the majority of comments here agreed they jumped the gun.