Leaving a job...ethical question

[Tri-Tip]

Sorry for the long post, but background is necessary.

This for a friend of mine (really, it is), wanted TRF's opinions...

She has been with the same company for nearly 10 years. When she started, it was a family-owned, entrepreneurial company with many, many long time employees.

Four years ago, it was acquired by a "corporation" out of NYC and Europe. One year ago the prior owner stepped down from running the operation and a person from the Corporate Office was brought in as General Manager to run the company.

In the past year, 20 of the 25 department heads have had their "positions eliminated" or have resigned, as have many employees, some with 20-30 years of tenure. It's no longer a family atmosphere, and not an enjoyable place to work anymore.

My friend went out on Maternity leave in November, after the birth of her first child. Based on what is happing, she wants to find employment elsewhere. Someone from inside the company was trained for several months before my friend had her child, and has been doing the job for nearly 4 months.

Here's the question...If my friend wants to leave the company for a new job would it be wrong for her to just let them know that she will not be returning, or should she come back for a week and then give 2 weeks notice?

If she were not taking another job and choosing to be a stay-at-home mother, I don't think there would be any need to return, but that is not the case, she wants to work somewhere else instead.

Opinions are greatly appreciated.

[malarky_hk]

Did you check if there are any contractual or legal obligations to provide notice? If not then he choice is purely up to your friend. Generally, there's very little loyalty in the working world nowadays.

[Buttercup]

Does she need them as a reference to get another job? If so, that complicates the issue. If not, and unless there was a clause attached to her maternity leave/pay stating she had to return, I think it would be fine to tell them she wasn't coming back.

[Old Expat Beast]

It's all about the contract. Ethics don't really come into it when dealing with multinationals, unless you're leaving your colleagues in the lurch.

[sea-dweller]

I would come back and give a two week notice. Be professional in all business dealings. It's a small world out there and you just never know.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by sea-dweller

i would come back and give a two week notice. Be professional in all business dealings. It's a small world out there and you just never know.

+1

[RollieVerde]

I'd contact them and discuss it. Say you are leaving, but will return for an official two-week notice if that would be better for them. Keep things cordial and professional, and let them decide what works best for them, because ether way she's free of them. It's a respect thing for the years that were actually good, and showing that you're not just fleeing. Who knows? It might actually be easier for everybody if she just doesn't return so everybody can move on, and this way she handled it professionally.

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by sea-dweller

I would come back and give a two week notice. Be professional in all business dealings. It's a small world out there and you just never know.

Exactly.

[Ed Rooney]

Originally Posted by sea-dweller

I would come back and give a two week notice. Be professional in all business dealings. It's a small world out there and you just never know.

I'm going to go ahead....disagree. If she comes back and then delivers her notice, she may actually put the company, or her replacement, in a pinch.

Think about it. They may move the employee who is been filling in for her to another role. Then when she comes back and delivers notice, several people may have to scramble. If she just tells them she is not coming back from leave, they have some time to deal with it and maybe just give her replacement the permanent job.

This company would RIF her in a pinch without batting an eye. She can't be sentimental with an employer. They sure won't be with her.

[Tri-Tip]

Originally Posted by RollieVerde

I'd contact them and discuss it. Say you are leaving, but will return for an official two-week notice if that would be better for them. Keep things cordial and professional, and let them decide what works best for them, because ether way she's free of them. It's a respect thing for the years that were actually good, and showing that you're not just fleeing. Who knows? It might actually be easier for everybody if she just doesn't return so everybody can move on, and this way she handled it professionally.

I think this is the perfect compromise. Make the offer to come back and put the burden on the company to decide.

I know them well, and will probably tell her to not bother.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Tri-Tip

Sorry for the long post, but background is necessary.

This for a friend of mine (really, it is), wanted TRF's opinions...

She has been with the same company for nearly 10 years. When she started, it was a family-owned, entrepreneurial company with many, many long time employees.

Four years ago, it was acquired by a "corporation" out of NYC and Europe. One year ago the prior owner stepped down from running the operation and a person from the Corporate Office was brought in as General Manager to run the company.

In the past year, 20 of the 25 department heads have had their "positions eliminated" or have resigned, as have many employees, some with 20-30 years of tenure. It's no longer a family atmosphere, and not an enjoyable place to work anymore.

My friend went out on Maternity leave in November, after the birth of her first child. Based on what is happing, she wants to find employment elsewhere. Someone from inside the company was trained for several months before my friend had her child, and has been doing the job for nearly 4 months.

Here's the question...If my friend wants to leave the company for a new job would it be wrong for her to just let them know that she will not be returning, or should she come back for a week and then give 2 weeks notice?

If she were not taking another job and choosing to be a stay-at-home mother, I don't think there would be any need to return, but that is not the case, she wants to work somewhere else instead.

Opinions are greatly appreciated.

1) personally, i would go back and work. don't quit. running up to the issues, she may have been overly emotional and it may even be a different place now.

2) the issues with the others leaving have nothing to do with her. it may even offer an opportunity for her having been there longer.

3) if she really wants to work somewhere else, she may have already checked out. therefore, go back and give 4 weeks notice. they may tell her to leave in 2 and pay her for the four. its also classier but tell her to put it in writing to HR so there's no surprises if recruiters call asking what happened if she looks elsewhere.

at the end of the day, biz is biz and she may even prefer taking a few years off being a new mom - which every mom deserves imho.

[rr-nyc]

The non-US members here could not possibly answer this question unless they have worked for a US company stateside because our employment laws are much different here.

Assuming your friend is not an executive under contract, she is an at-will employee. She has no obligation to give notice and can terminate her employment at any time for any reason, just as her employer can terminate her.

Maternity leave is paid through at short term disability policy and the FMLA protects her job for up to 12 weeks (STD pays 6-8 weeks and some companies pay the difference)

If I were her, I would ride out the entire term of her claim. Otherwise, that could open up another issue of insurance fraud if she were to start a new job while collecting payments. I would then give notice two weeks before she is scheduled to return to work since that is an acceptable time frame for notice. Returning back to work just to give notice is pointless especially if someone is handling her work and there are no open issues that were waiting for her return.

[Tri-Tip]

She has now been out for nearly 4 months. She is in "baby bonding" time. I don't know if she is still collecting from disability or not. If she is, she would give that up upon staring a new job.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Tri-Tip

She has now been out for nearly 4 months. She is in "baby bonding" time. I don't know if she is still collecting from disability or not. If she is, she would give that up upon staring a new job.

Holy smokes, I just noticed that in your original post. If those 4 months have been paid, that in itself makes this company incredibly gracious. Is she sure she wants to leave over the new corporate culture?

[GradyPhilpott]

It sounds to me like her potential replacement is already trained and on the job.

It certainly would be a good idea to check with the company to see what they would prefer, but I think giving notice while already on leave wouldn't burden the company at all.

Based on the history provided, I don't think anyone would be surprised.

[kaseri]

I have always felt it's best to adhere to the standard 2 weeks notice (at minimum). You just never know when you'll run into past colleagues and having them "in your pocket" can be very handy.

[MitchSteel]

"Let the fires of burning bridges light my way"

[azguy]

I often wonder what world you guys live in

First, nobody gives a "reference" anymore. it's name, rank and serial number, dates employed and salary if they call into the corporate HR office to do a check. All stuff is done electronically via checking social media, credit, criminal and piss test, etc...

If a new employer wants to actually speak with someone they ask for a few names.

Secondly, most of the time when you give 2 weeks, they walk you out, pay you for the two weeks and your done.

To answer your questions, she should not go back, no reason what-so-ever.

[Tri-Tip]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Holy smokes, I just noticed that in your original post. If those 4 months have been paid, that in itself makes this company incredibly gracious. Is she sure she wants to leave over the new corporate culture?

The company has not been paying her, she was collecting State Disability Insurance.

[Tri-Tip]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

1) personally, i would go back and work. don't quit. running up to the issues, she may have been overly emotional and it may even be a different place now.

2) the issues with the others leaving have nothing to do with her. it may even offer an opportunity for her having been there longer.

3) if she really wants to work somewhere else, she may have already checked out. therefore, go back and give 4 weeks notice. they may tell her to leave in 2 and pay her for the four. its also classier but tell her to put it in writing to HR so there's no surprises if recruiters call asking what happened if she looks elsewhere.

at the end of the day, biz is biz and she may even prefer taking a few years off being a new mom - which every mom deserves imho.

1. It is a different place now...for the worse. They had a PhD chemist resign last week after 20 years, with 2 kids in college and without another job lined up.

2. No chance.

3. I suggested that she give her 2 weeks notice (she's not management, so 2 weeks is customary) via writing to her manager, and offer to work them. My guess is they will tell her to not bother.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by azguy

I often wonder what world you guys live in

First, nobody gives a "reference" anymore. it's name, rank and serial number, dates employed and salary if they call into the corporate HR office to do a check. All stuff is done electronically via checking social media, credit, criminal and piss test, etc...

If a new employer wants to actually speak with someone they ask for a few names.

Secondly, most of the time when you give 2 weeks, they walk you out, pay you for the two weeks and your done.

To answer your questions, she should not go back, no reason what-so-ever.

Midwest
I would tend to disagree, as a former employer. I can't recall, how many times, I've been called on, many times, years after a separation, to give a reference on a former employee. Even after, I've sold the business. It's better to err on the safe side of things. And I've rarely ever hired anyone, without first giving an attempt, to check references.
I don't care how big the business is, often people will say quite a bit. Even in their silence.
Just my two cents.

[Casey VP-26]

I would go back and give notice. Always respect face to face Contact

[SrFADE]

After four months of absence, the company has already figured out how to get along without her. In addition, the company is probably stalled on telling her that she is no longer needed due to fear of discrimination claim over the pregnancy "disability." They will probably be relieved when she announces her intention to resign and it will likely not be a surprise to the company. In my management experience, 40% of pregnancy LOAs result in the mothers deciding that raising a child is more important than their paycheck and resign either before or very shortly after returning to work. As a professional business practice, if I were she, I would call my boss, tell him/her my intention, suggest a termination date, and offer to come in, if necessary, for a short transition period if desired. Yes, the formal and legally safe reference policy these days is "dates worked and whether or not eligible for rehire." However, plenty of less formal "reference checks" are supplied behind the scene. Better to have a professional separation. The world can be very small in these cases, and some industries are even smaller.

[wantonebad]

I think John and Renato have it about right, Child Bonding is an added supplemental leave allowed in CA (The California Family Rights Act (CFRA)) and I was pretty sure that was the only state? However as far as her job, she has zero leagal, ethical, or perceived social obligation to return and then give notice. Woman on maternity leave have an attrition rate of close to 40% depending on the industry, it's a fact of U.S. life, she should call her HR department two weeks before returning and inform them of her plans. This is an everyday occurrence for an HR executive and they are prepared for this result for anyone on any kind of leave.

Renato's assessment of U.S. employee's and their "at-will" status was spot-on. There is no obligation moral or otherwise to "do the right thing". U.S. business is about cost cutting, streamlining and also to an extent marginalizing those who simply are content to punch a clock. If you are not an outstanding contributor, someone who directly affects the bottom line, then someone somewhere is talking about replacing you or making your role disappear. Likewise, if you stick around a company because it's family owned or comfortable then you need to be ready be replaced, it's just they way things work. JMHO

Originally Posted by SrFADE

After four months of absence, the company has already figured out how to get along without her. In addition, the company is probably stalled on telling her that she is no longer needed due to fear of discrimination claim over the pregnancy "disability." They will probably be relieved when she announces her intention to resign and it will likely not be a surprise to the company. In my management experience, 40% of pregnancy LOAs result in the mothers deciding that raising a child is more important than their paycheck and resign either before or very shortly after returning to work. As a professional business practice, if I were she, I would call my boss, tell him/her my intention, suggest a termination date, and offer to come in, if necessary, for a short transition period if desired. Yes, the formal and legally safe reference policy these days is "dates worked and whether or not eligible for rehire." However, plenty of less formal "reference checks" are supplied behind the scene. Better to have a professional separation. The world can be very small in these cases, and some industries are even smaller.

I mostly agree, the only place we really differ is on who to contact, I would either make it a simultaneous contact with HR and your supervisor or HR alone. JMHO

[wantonebad]

From another angle I also agree with CJ, going to work at a job you don't like is not fun, but it is necessary sometimes and if she does have to work then having the seniority she's accrued at this job can't be replaced. She'll get the benefit of the doubt for being able to leave early and her boss may be more receptive to her working from home a day or two a week, that's harder to negotiate with a new job.

If they decide to let her go after a few months than she will have a fairly decent package depending on the industry and corporate policy given her tenure. Could be a damn sight better then starting a new job and then deciding she doesn't like it there either, now she has no tenure and no fall back position.

I think most new mom's struggle with this decision and it's not enviable, I just hope she thinks it through.

[Mfrankel2]

Originally Posted by RollieVerde

I'd contact them and discuss it. Say you are leaving, but will return for an official two-week notice if that would be better for them. Keep things cordial and professional, and let them decide what works best for them, because ether way she's free of them. It's a respect thing for the years that were actually good, and showing that you're not just fleeing. Who knows? It might actually be easier for everybody if she just doesn't return so everybody can move on, and this way she handled it professionally.

This. When in doubt, full disclosure can never be wrong. Unless it would be placing her in some sort of compromised position (new position needs her to start by date certain and this could put the new job in jeopardy, etc.) there's really no downside to contacting her direct supervisor or HR person, explaining her position and giving them the option

[Dr.Brian]

Two weeks would be nice, I have to give 6 months notice.

[sea-dweller]

I once was recruited to a start-up here in the Bay Area. They lured me away from a very good and stable job that I had, with a better compensation package and stock options.
I left my company in a professional way, but my manager was not happy. I assured him that it was for a better opportunity and not anything against him, so we parted on good terms.

A few months later, the start-up I joined turned out to be a toxic disaster of a workplace. I called my old manager back to ask for my old job back and he told me that he would bring me back to my old position, as soon as an opening was available.

It's always good to stay professional, the world is a small place.

[Trouble15]

Originally Posted by sea-dweller

I would come back and give a two week notice. Be professional in all business dealings. It's a small world out there and you just never know.

I'd agree with this.

[Laszlo]

Two-weeks goes by very quickly and she won't have it on her consciencousness. It's the right thing to do IMO.