Why is buying a car so hard/insulting?

[gmh1013]

I bought our Highlander through Costco.... got a great price plus did not have to put up with the normal dealer B.S. Just signed papers and we were out in less than 30 mins.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by swils8610

Honestly??

Yes, honestly. Perhaps I should have elaborated. What he will NOT do is advertise or tell you a price, and when you get to the dealer try to change terms, or sell you a different and upgraded vehicle, or take your keys when you are trading in a car to "check it out" and have them disappear when you tell the dealer you don't want to deal with them anymore and would like to leave. And you finally dial the police on your cell when they "can't find" your keys and suddenly they appear. You see, these things happened to me. I call those tactics DISHONEST. Danny83 will not attempt any of those... maneuvers.

That is what I meant by "HONESTLY"

Maybe it is unfair of me to form an opinion of all car dealers from the (three) bad experiences I have had with them, but what else do I have to base it on? Would you like to hear the details? I will be glad to describe each and every encounter, but the end result is I generally place them at the level of a snake oil salesman, putting it mildly.

Danny is an exception to this opinion, and I am buying my next car from him later this year. I am sure you are an honest and fair car dealer yourself, but my experiences have me forming an opinion of general disdain for those in your profession. Sorry for being blunt, and perhaps you feel the same way about Navy Fighter Pilots, like me, we are both entitled to our opinions.

[Relyt]

I just wish the price was the price. Same for everyone. No negotiating. Granted I have always negotiated great deals, but why should I get a car for "x" and the customer after me pay 4K extra because they "didn't know."


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[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Yes, honestly. Perhaps I should have elaborated. What he will NOT do is advertise or tell you a price, and when you get to the dealer try to change terms, or sell you a different and upgraded vehicle, or take your keys when you are trading in a car to "check it out" and have them disappear when you tell the dealer you don't want to deal with them anymore and would like to leave. And you finally dial the police on your cell when they "can't find" your keys and suddenly they appear. You see, these things happened to me. I call those tactics DISHONEST. Danny83 will not attempt any of those... maneuvers.

That is what I meant by "HONESTLY"

Maybe it is unfair of me to form an opinion of all car dealers from the (three) bad experiences I have had with them, but what else do I have to base it on? Would you like to hear the details? I will be glad to describe each and every encounter, but the end result is I generally place them at the level of a snake oil salesman, putting it mildly.

Danny is an exception to this opinion, and I am buying my next car from him later this year. I am sure you are an honest and fair car dealer yourself, but my experiences have me forming an opinion of general disdain for those in your profession. Sorry for being blunt, and perhaps you feel the same way about Navy Fighter Pilots, like me, we are both entitled to our opinions.

I had a bad experience trying to buy an F-14 from a Navy Fighter Pilot once... ended up with a bridge in Brooklyn

Agree Paul. There are far more bad experiences out in the ether with car dealers than good ones, hence the general distrust for dealers. As far as I know, I haven't dealt with any forum members, and don't want to unfairly cast them in the same bucket as the ones I have experienced. But as a consumer sector, car dealers have a reputation for using more shady tactics than any other consumer sector.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I had a bad experience trying to buy an F-14 from a Navy Fighter Pilot once... ended up with a bridge in Brooklyn

Agree Paul. There are far more bad experiences out in the ether with car dealers than good ones, hence the general distrust for dealers. As far as I know, I haven't dealt with any forum members, and don't want to unfairly cast them in the same bucket as the ones I have experienced. But as a consumer sector, car dealers have a reputation for using more shady tactics than any other consumer sector.

Abdullah!!!! I gave you a great deal on that bridge!!

[swils8610]

Paul, I've read and followed your posts and always enjoyed them. It is unfair of you to label me as a snake oil salesman seeing as we have never met before. I think it's great that Danny83 won't do any of those things you mentioned. Neither do I in my dealerships. Didn't you say in a previous post you bought your Ford from a friend you had a dealership? And truthfully...what does my opinion of a Navy Fighter Pilot have to do with this thread? Pure rubbish. Yeah we all are entitled to our opinions...and mine in quickly changing based on this last post of yours.

[swils8610]

Paul, as far as my opinion of Navy Fighter Pilots goes...the dealer group I work for are very supportive of our Vets. We donated the funds to build an Iraqi War Memorial in my hometown. We also support Veterans One Stop and last year donated a new vehicle to a deserving Vet and also donated 8 two year leases to deserving Vets. The Vets were nominated by other Vets in our community. All from a snake oil salesman.

[TheVTCGuy]

Did you read the part: "I am sure you are a fair and honest car dealer yourself?" I separated you from the group I was referring to, meant as a compliment but admit is was probably a bad and meager attempt.

Think of me as you will, and I did try to separate you, and Danny, and my friend, but every time I have had any experiences with a car salesman that I did not know personally, I.e. just walking in to a dealer cold, I was subjected to dishonest and underhanded tactics; one time as I explained ended only when I called the police. This numbers four, and I will be glad to explain all incidents if you'd like to hear, but suffice it to say they were all extremely bad. I have only my personal experience to go on and now am so leery of buying a new car from a dealer I will only do it with someone I know and trust. Am I just unlucky by running in to a few bad of the thousands of good dealers? I acknowledge that may be possible, and I have no doubt there are exceptional ones out there; I can only base my opinion on what I have experienced; which is stressful, demeaning and insulting. Sorry, but that has been my experience. One last time, I am sure your business is not operated in that manner.

P.S. Nothing really about the Navy Fighter Pilot, we have been known to have a reputation.... Uhm... Well, I guess of a cocky-self centered and egotistical bunch... Heck in my younger years I was all of those. Anyway just admitting that it is possible for a group to have a less then favorable reputation, and I myself might belong to one of them; that's all.

[Rock]

A mate of mine whose dad was a car salesman (and a really decent gent) told me that in the sales game they have a saying "Buyers are Liars" - so I guess it cuts both ways, doesn't it.
But to the point - where do you find out the current "invoice price" for a given vehicle?
Obviously this might be a bit different in Australia but there should be commonalities.

[rouxeny]

Google.

Edmunds.com usually has good info.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Did you read the part: "I am sure you are a fair and honest car dealer yourself?" I separated you from the group I was referring to, meant as a compliment but admit is was probably a bad and meager attempt.

Think of me as you will, and I did try to separate you, and Danny, and my friend, but every time I have had any experiences with a car salesman that I did not know personally, I.e. just walking in to a dealer cold, I was subjected to dishonest and underhanded tactics; one time as I explained ended only when I called the police. This numbers four, and I will be glad to explain all incidents if you'd like to hear, but suffice it to say they were all extremely bad. I have only my personal experience to go on and now am so leery of buying a new car from a dealer I will only do it with someone I know and trust. Am I just unlucky by running in to a few bad of the thousands of good dealers? I acknowledge that may be possible, and I have no doubt there are exceptional ones out there; I can only base my opinion on what I have experienced; which is stressful, demeaning and insulting. Sorry, but that has been my experience. One last time, I am sure your business is not operated in that manner.

P.S. Nothing really about the Navy Fighter Pilot, we have been known to have a reputation.... Uhm... Well, I guess of a cocky-self centered and egotistical bunch... Heck in my younger years I was all of those. Anyway just admitting that it is possible for a group to have a less then favorable reputation, and I myself might belong to one of them; that's all.

You need to quit while you're behind.

[Baco Noir]

The best car buying experience we've had was using the Costco buyers program - the price is prenegotiated and offered a great discount on the Toyota. The only annoyance we dealt with at the dealership was the finance guy who didn't like that we were paying cash and did not want any of the add ons he was trying to sell.

[Rolex addict]

I always aim for 15-18% off MSRP which includes, tax, tag, title, etc. (ie. "out the door price") and have never had an issue. I pay cash, don't do trade ins, and have never had an issue. I may be able to get a better deal, but we are all in business to make money. They have bills to pay, overhead, and employees with families. If they don't want to take my deal, that's fine. I'm willing to move on, but every dealership so far has taken my offer which means they're making money.

[joli160]

I buy from a small hometown no nonsense garage, avoid dealers for all the a.m. reasons.
Happy to give the local shop my business. Pay a little more and in return receive really outstanding customer service

[Hpozzuoli]

Selling cars and making money is hard work. The salesman need volume to make a decent check. Sometimes they go fast or might seem like they are forgetting something, but they are not. They need to close your deal to go after the next. Same thing with selling copiers and pharma....only difference is EVERYONE drives a car. Not everyone owns a copier or wholesales drugs. People will always complain about something and blame someone.

[Gasoil4ever]

Originally Posted by Hpozzuoli

Selling cars and making money is hard work. The salesman need volume to make a decent check. Sometimes they go fast or might seem like they are forgetting something, but they are not. They need to close your deal to go after the next. Same thing with selling copiers and pharma....only difference is EVERYONE drives a car. Not everyone owns a copier or wholesales drugs. People will always complain about something and blame someone.

+1

Truth spoken.

Not an easy job, especially now that everyone has internet (lots of crap to be found on the web).

[swils8610]

This has been an interesting thread to say the least! I apologize if I have in anyway offended or pissed anyone off!! This forum is a great place with great people and great conversation!! Cheers.

[Etschell]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

Buying a car doesn't have to be difficult. Your first mistake is walking into the dealership and negotiating with a salesman.

Do your research and know how much you should pay for the car you want. Email the online sales manager of a few dealerships and let them know the car that you want and how much you're willing to pay. If they can meet your price, you will go in and buy it that day.

I told my dad to do that with his last car purchase and it worked. No hassle. I recently gave the same advice to a coworker and it worked great for him, too.

there is no fun or joy in that. i make it a game. like my last lease. they told me 430 a month when i started. i got down to 350 and settled it there. i think they just hope a sucker walks in and agrees to the first price.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by swils8610

This has been an interesting thread to say the least! I apologize if I have in anyway offended or pissed anyone off!! This forum is a great place with great people and great conversation!! Cheers.

Shannon has proved to be the more honorable between the two of us, no surprise there, but even though it's a day late and dollar short, let me offer my apologies too.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Shannon has proved to be the more honorable between the two of us, no surprise there, but even though it's a day late and dollar short, let me offer my apologies too.

Very nice of you Paul

[swils8610]

Your a true gentleman Paul! My apologies as well!

[Rashid.bk]

Dealership experience and buying a car is the worst experience of all the buying of merchandise I do. Buying a car using Wesley's advice by using the internet sales dept is perfect....for buying a Honda Accord, MB C450, or Audi A4, basically any normal car that can be found on a lot. But this technique won't work when you want a car like a Hellcat, Ford GT350, Cayman GT4 or even the new M3.
When you want to buy a niche lower production specialty car your bargaining power can be hindered and the games are absolutely ludicrous on getting discounts or the trade in value of your car.

Just recently I tried to buy a 2016 M3. I want it built with certain packages, and cannot find it built like that on a lot. This will be a special order like 50% of M3/4 orders. So first you have to get an allocation from a dealer, I ended up going out of state because none can be had anywhere in central-western Texas and then to work out the price is a nightmare because they know the vehicle is difficult to allocate, and of course they want to rob me on my trade in.

It has been like this with every car I've bought over the last nine years because I have an unfortunate taste in niche cars. It started with my STI, Mazdazpeed3, Evo X MR and now my M3. Had zero issues negotiating or buying family cars. My Honda Odyssey, or BMW X5 were uneventful purchases in which I had much leverage in negotiating.

My experience is that if you want a specialty car, get ready for the circus. I loathe dealing with 99% of stealerships when buying a car.

[ronricks]

I usually just find a handful of dealerships and email them all the car I am looking for and ask them what they can do for me. They all reply and I narrow it down to the 3 best offers and copy them all on a new email and ask who can beat what price. Since they are all on the same email and can see each others email addresses they know I am a serious buyer.

I then narrow it down to one and bring a check for the price of the car they quoted. Never had a problem using this method.

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by Relyt

I just wish the price was the price. Same for everyone. No negotiating. Granted I have always negotiated great deals, but why should I get a car for "x" and the customer after me pay 4K extra because they "didn't know."


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Well, technically it is, they call is MSRP. lol

[miteemike3]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

...Buying a car using Wesley's advice by using the internet sales dept is perfect....for buying a Honda Accord, MB C450, or Audi A4, basically any normal car that can be found on a lot. But this technique won't work when you want a car like a Hellcat, Ford GT350, Cayman GT4 or even the new M3.
When you want to buy a niche lower production specialty car your bargaining power can be hindered and the games are absolutely ludicrous on getting discounts or the trade in value of your car.

Exactly - has been my experience as well. I don't have any niche or specialty cars at the moment, just normal cars that can easily be found on most lots. I do all my negotiation via email and once I have a price I'm comfortable with in writing, I make an appointment with my dealer and am in and out in less than an hour. When I'm at the dealership, it's strictly to sign papers and pick up my new car.

If you want something special, well... you know the game - gotta pay to play It's important to remember that you as the consumer have the power to walk away, difficult as it may be. Don't like a price quote, "xx" salesman is treating you like an idiot, etc. etc, walk away and find another dealership

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by swils8610

I've been running car dealerships for 20+ years. Not all dealerships are like that. If your not comfortable with salesman or figures take your business elsewhere.

Hey. I noticed you have a lot of experience in the car business and I was hoping you could give me some advice. I started working in the car business in 2010 at CarMax. There we didn't have finance managers so we had to spin our own deals and sold the extended warranty, GAP, loJack etc along with the car. The pay plan at CarMax sucked so I went to Toyota then Mercedes and now I work at the world's largest volume Lexus dealership.

I have sold almost every product that the finance guys currently sell when I was at CarMax but I was never officially a finance manager. My warranty penetration was over 90 percent which wasn't an easy thing to do at CarMax since we sold all products individually and couldn't go to the desk to ask for a "Nickel" or a "Dime" to help us sell our products.

My question is how do I convince my finance director and GSM to give me a shot at F&I. I'm even willing to do all cash deals first if they can just give me shot while I sell cars also.

[Jfullm42]

I love buying a car. Walk in with a envelope of $100 bills, name the price and if they don't match it then walk away. It gives me a great sense of ownership knowing that I am in control and will pay what I want, and if they "can't" go it, then they don't get the sale.

Call me weird, but I love continually saying no till they finally agree with my original price. Know what the vehicle is worth, walk in with cash, smile a little and have some fun

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

Hey. I noticed you have a lot of experience in the car business and I was hoping you could give me some advice. I started working in the car business in 2010 at CarMax. There we didn't have finance managers so we had to spin our own deals and sold the extended warranty, GAP, loJack etc along with the car. The pay plan at CarMax sucked so I went to Toyota then Mercedes and now I work at the world's largest volume Lexus dealership.

I have sold almost every product that the finance guys currently sell when I was at CarMax but I was never officially a finance manager. My warranty penetration was over 90 percent which wasn't an easy thing to do at CarMax since we sold all products individually and couldn't go to the desk to ask for a "Nickel" or a "Dime" to help us sell our products.

My question is how do I convince my finance director and GSM to give me a shot at F&I. I'm even willing to do all cash deals first if they can just give me shot while I sell cars also.

Interesting wordage, coming from a current car salesman. You could see why some are less than thrilled with the whole car buying merry-go-round.....

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

Dealership experience and buying a car is the worst experience of all the buying of merchandise I do. Buying a car using Wesley's advice by using the internet sales dept is perfect....for buying a Honda Accord, MB C450, or Audi A4, basically any normal car that can be found on a lot. But this technique won't work when you want a car like a Hellcat, Ford GT350, Cayman GT4 or even the new M3.
When you want to buy a niche lower production specialty car your bargaining power can be hindered and the games are absolutely ludicrous on getting discounts or the trade in value of your car.

Just recently I tried to buy a 2016 M3. I want it built with certain packages, and cannot find it built like that on a lot. This will be a special order like 50% of M3/4 orders. So first you have to get an allocation from a dealer, I ended up going out of state because none can be had anywhere in central-western Texas and then to work out the price is a nightmare because they know the vehicle is difficult to allocate, and of course they want to rob me on my trade in.

It has been like this with every car I've bought over the last nine years because I have an unfortunate taste in niche cars. It started with my STI, Mazdazpeed3, Evo X MR and now my M3. Had zero issues negotiating or buying family cars. My Honda Odyssey, or BMW X5 were uneventful purchases in which I had much leverage in negotiating.

My experience is that if you want a specialty car, get ready for the circus. I loathe dealing with 99% of stealerships when buying a car.

I ordered my 15 from a dealer outside of Philly for 1k over invoice last March. With 2k in incentives I ended up 1k under invoice and ordered it to my liking. I imagine they would do it on a 16 for you as the allocations were notoriously scarce on the 15 m3 as you well know

[East Bay Rider]

Just an observation about cash car purchases: Back in 2009 I bought 2 CPO Nissan Xterras and wrote a personal check for each. Financing or not did not affect the sale. In neither case did the dealer appear to care what form the payment was in or if I could afford to buy them outright or not. Maybe that's different than at luxury brands but Nissan didn't care.