Apple's stand against the Feds

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by 77T

I take no sides until the process has played out.

But I think the question hinges on a simpler premise by removing the technical aspects.

If, instead of owning an iPhone, this guy had written all his contacts in some esoteric encrypted code. And he did it with a pen on plain paper. And you supplied that pen and paper. Would you be comfortable being ordered to stop and immediately crack the code because that guy had used a pen and paper that you supplied?


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I really don't think it's the same thing... IF you had created the code, then yes, but of course not if you just manufactured the pen and paper. Apple created the security code. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point Paul

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

You may be right, I think probably you are. And I am not intelligent enough on the subject to say definitively but knowing the incredible knowledge that a lot of engineers have, (about a million times smarter then I will ever be) I submit there must be a solution that will minimize, as much as possible, the cost and time of such a solution. I know that in my industry, we constantly make "fixes" and changes to the OS of our telecommunications systems that do not require a completely new version, that is why I believe Apple could also find some way to accomplish it (and of course, charge the government appropriately). THEY SHOULD AT LEAST MAKE THE ATTEMPT TO ASSIST IN SAVING FUTURE VICTIMS. You ask, "what about the next time" A fair question and I pray that there will never be another terrorist attack, but if there is, then the Feds and Apple will deal with that one in a similar matter. You presented a "what if" now here is mine, highly unlikely but possible:

There is another attack and humans are slaughtered, and it could have been prevented by the information in this phone. GOD forbid it is any of your family or friends but even complete strangers, they are innocent people. What, will you tell the loved ones of those victims? "Well, we might have been able to thwart this terrible tragedy but it would have been costly and difficult and MIGHT have invaded someone's privacy so we didn't bother" ?

I don't care if it was 2 1/2 months ago or 2 1/2 decades, this might contain information that will save innocent people, perhaps your friends or mine, from being murdered. That in itself dictates it must be attempted. Apple has held off granting the request until a court order (our system) compelled them to, I don't fault them for that, and I don't claim our system is perfect, but it is pretty darn good and until we democratically vote a change the best we have. For Apple to resist further is shameful, and tomorrow I am buying an android phone and tablet and throwing away my IPhone and IPad as my method of protest, just my Perogative.

Oh, and I failed to answer a question you posed to me earlier... Can't even find it now but you asked if I would support the torturing of innocent people.... Something along those lines. My answer is of course not, and I submit that your saying the breaking of this phone will result in the torturing of innocent people is about as far fetched as my scenario that it will thwart a future attack, but the possibility is there and must be investigated. Possibly some of the contacts in the phone that are completely innocent will be inconvenienced, to the point of being interviewed by the FBI. I have personally experienced this. The hour or so of time and being placed in an uncomfortable situation is far from torture, and a small price to pay for safety and security in this great country of ours.

I think we've run our debate full circle. We can agree to disagree.

My answer to your scenario is no different than the answer I gave before; If there was information on that phone that could have thwarted another terrorist attack but it couldn't be found because Apple or Google or Microsoft successfully fought the court order, I can live with that.

My question about torture was this: Would you support torturing innocent people in order to find a few bad ones?

It wasn't meant to correlate innocent phone users being tortured metaphorically as a result of this court order. It was in response your question about about what if the phone contained information that could stop a terrorist attack from happening. If we start giving up all our liberties, when is enough enough? How far are you willing to let your country go to stop the next terrorist attack from happening? Even if you don't have anything to hide, don't you think it's fair that we all have a right to privacy?

This court order sets a new precedent. US vs Apple Inc will be the new case law used when an android phone needs to be decrypted. If Apple is forced to create a back door so law enforcement can look into any phone they deem may hold a clue to the next attack, what comes next? We have our cars tracking each stop or have to check in/out of our own homes or keep a log of every dollar spent to make sure its not being used for terrorist related items? You may think all of that sounds ridiculous but it wasn't long ago that banks stopped accepting cash deposits from anyone other than the account holder. So if I wanted to deposit a $100 bill into my moms bank account tomorrow, I can't because for some crazy reason, that may be a terror related.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

You may be right, I think probably you are. And I am not intelligent enough on the subject to say definitively but knowing the incredible knowledge that a lot of engineers have, (about a million times smarter then I will ever be) I submit there must be a solution that will minimize, as much as possible, the cost and time of such a solution. I know that in my industry, we constantly make "fixes" and changes to the OS of our telecommunications systems that do not require a completely new version, that is why I believe Apple could also find some way to accomplish it (and of course, charge the government appropriately). THEY SHOULD AT LEAST MAKE THE ATTEMPT TO ASSIST IN SAVING FUTURE VICTIMS. You ask, "what about the next time" A fair question and I pray that there will never be another terrorist attack, but if there is, then the Feds and Apple will deal with that one in a similar matter. You presented a "what if" now here is mine, highly unlikely but possible:

There is another attack and humans are slaughtered, and it could have been prevented by the information in this phone. GOD forbid it is any of your family or friends but even complete strangers, they are innocent people. What, will you tell the loved ones of those victims? "Well, we might have been able to thwart this terrible tragedy but it would have been costly and difficult and MIGHT have invaded someone's privacy so we didn't bother" ?

I don't care if it was 2 1/2 months ago or 2 1/2 decades, this might contain information that will save innocent people, perhaps your friends or mine, from being murdered. That in itself dictates it must be attempted. Apple has held off granting the request until a court order (our system) compelled them to, I don't fault them for that, and I don't claim our system is perfect, but it is pretty darn good and until we democratically vote a change the best we have. For Apple to resist further is shameful, and tomorrow I am buying an android phone and tablet and throwing away my IPhone and IPad as my method of protest, just my Perogative.

Oh, and I failed to answer a question you posed to me earlier... Can't even find it now but you asked if I would support the torturing of innocent people.... Something along those lines. My answer is of course not, and I submit that your saying the breaking of this phone will result in the torturing of innocent people is about as far fetched as my scenario that it will thwart a future attack, but the possibility is there and must be investigated. Possibly some of the contacts in the phone that are completely innocent will be inconvenienced, to the point of being interviewed by the FBI. I have personally experienced this. The hour or so of time and being placed in an uncomfortable situation is far from torture, and a small price to pay for safety and security in this great country of ours.

The rights of the dead do not supersede the rights of the living. Making an argument that you can oppress an innocent person in the name of a victim is not consistent with traditional American values. Allowing the government to have a capability that can be used to oppress the innocent under the guise of protecting lives has been the mantra of totalitarian governments for ages. The framers of the constitution saw this as an insidious threat and included privacy protections to guard against this very thing.

How do you define the level of threat that must be demonstrated before the government can suspend constitutional rights? A one in one thousand chance? One in a million? Where do you draw the line that says the government cannot enter your home and deprive you of your rights?

As for throwing away your Apple products - you've already paid for them. How does that harm Apple? Definitely don't buy the Apple watch

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

I think we've run our debate full circle. We can agree to disagree.

My answer to your scenario is no different than the answer I gave before; If there was information on that phone that could have thwarted another terrorist attack but it couldn't be found because Apple or Google or Microsoft successfully fought the court order, I can live with that.

My question about torture was this: Would you support torturing innocent people in order to find a few bad ones?

It wasn't meant to correlate innocent phone users being tortured metaphorically as a result of this court order. It was in response your question about about what if the phone contained information that could stop a terrorist attack from happening. If we start giving up all our liberties, when is enough enough? How far are you willing to let your country go to stop the next terrorist attack from happening? Even if you don't have anything to hide, don't you think it's fair that we all have a right to privacy?

This court order sets a new precedent. US vs Apple Inc will be the new case law used when an android phone needs to be decrypted. If Apple is forced to create a back door so law enforcement can look into any phone they deem may hold a clue to the next attack, what comes next? We have our cars tracking each stop or have to check in/out of our own homes or keep a log of every dollar spent to make sure its not being used for terrorist related items? You may think all of that sounds ridiculous but it wasn't long ago that banks stopped accepting cash deposits from anyone other than the account holder. So if I wanted to deposit a $100 bill into my moms bank account tomorrow, I can't because for some crazy reason, that may be a terror related.

Ahh, gotcha. I knew there was a question about the torture but couldn't find it. Of course my answer is no, and if you ask would I want everyone's phone info to be made available to the FBI just so they (might) find a few bad people, again I say no and agree with you. I am not supporting a blanket-wide skeleton key or whatever you want to call it for the government to be able to spy on anyone's phone anytime, not by a long shot. I do say there are times when (through our legal system of checks and balances, imperfect though it may be) investigations and "invasions" of privacy are warranted; and this is one of them. I also have enough faith in our system and government that it would not be abused, although understand there have been abuses in the past and that could be a valid concern, still choose to have faith. Lastly, I honestly believe there is a method Apple could accomplish this, without handing over the "skeleton key" to every IPhone in the world, granted it could be expensive and difficult. I have no technical expertise to back this belief up, just my experience as an Engineer.

Let's agree on one thing, something I promised to and will pray about; that there are no more terrorist attacks and no more innocent people slaughtered. Maybe naive on my part to hope for such a thing, but still I will pray for it.

[dalip]

I found this useful : https://medium.com/p/be24163bdfa

[sleddog]

Originally Posted by dalip

I found this useful : https://medium.com/p/be24163bdfa

A great read Dalip, and certainly on point given the delicate position Apple treads.

To me however, the most pertinent words in quote are, "And it’s literally Pandora’s box: Once you open it, even a bit, there’s no way back".

This is a situation in time that holds a far reaching resolve moving forward for everyone. I for one can only hope that Apple holds fast in it's position, the authorities get what they need, and the general public keeps its grasp on individualism.....without fear of big brother holding us all in a flux of potential fault.

A tricky subject indeed..

[dalip]

Agreed Rob. Looking at the ramifications and specifically the "Pandora's Box" reference it's crucial they hold firm. A tremendous amount at stake. Tricky indeed - pragmatic and coherent argument /leadership needs to be at the forefront.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by dalip

Agreed Rob. Looking at the ramifications and specifically the "Pandora's Box" reference it's crucial they hold firm. A tremendous amount at stake. Tricky indeed - pragmatic and coherent argument /leadership needs to be at the forefront.

Is Apple doing any more than hedging its bets by publicizing this refusal? I'd like to wait and see how much of its resources it allocates to this fight.

If Apple quietly complied with the court order to unlock the iphone, and the government later abused its key/backdoor, would it not lose the trust of its customers?

In the end they are a consumer driven company with 100+ million customers worldwide.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by sleddog

A great read Dalip, and certainly on point given the delicate position Apple treads.

To me however, the most pertinent words in quote are, "And it’s literally Pandora’s box: Once you open it, even a bit, there’s no way back".

This is a situation in time that holds a far reaching resolve moving forward for everyone. I for one can only hope that Apple holds fast in it's position, the authorities get what they need, and the general public keeps its grasp on individualism.....without fear of big brother holding us all in a flux of potential fault.

A tricky subject indeed..

Originally Posted by dalip

Agreed Rob. Looking at the ramifications and specifically the "Pandora's Box" reference it's crucial they hold firm. A tremendous amount at stake. Tricky indeed - pragmatic and coherent argument /leadership needs to be at the forefront.

Agree 100% gentlemen and I also hope Apple stands firm! A very tricky subject indeed and not as simple as some here would like to think or believe. Thanks for posting link Dalip!

[Thunderball57]

Originally Posted by fmc000

The moment they do they can file for Chapter 11. Once they create a firmware made to circumvent the encryption they are screwed: you can sign any non-disclosure agreement you want but that firmware will eventually leak out and then Apple as a company will simply implode.

Probably so, but try explaining that to survivors of the next probable terrorist attack and see what they and the public think about it. I know it's a slippery slope and I'm usually against such intrusions. It's a tough call, no doubt about it. I believe if the next terrorist attack is proven to be directly related to those zealots in San Bernardino, Apple will take a very bad hit in more ways than one.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Thunderball57

Probably so, but try explaining that to survivors of the next probable terrorist attack and see what they and the public think about it. I know it's a slippery slope and I'm usually against such intrusions. It's a tough call, no doubt about it. I believe if the next terrorist attack is proven to be directly related to those zealots in San Bernardino, Apple will take a very bad hit in more ways than one.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

Maybe. Maybe not. Once Apple reveals what they've already provided, they will be largely absolved.

The real losers would eventually be the law enforcement agencies. They've had months to probe and scour everything these criminals had in their home, on their computers, and in their personal lives. They've had access to everything on the iCloud and all the phone and internet records. They can interview associates, conduct legal searches where probable cause exists, and wire tap suspects. If they are unable to develop a proper investigation to prevent cohorts from engaging in criminal acts with all this existing authority and evidence, they should be stripped of their credentials and demoted to dog catcher.

[greggsiam]

Apple ID was changed AFTER police had custody of the phone
http://9to5mac.com/2016/02/19/apple-...-fbi-backdoor/

The Apple ID passcode linked to the iPhone belonging to one of the San Bernardino terrorists was changed less than 24 hours after the government took possession of the device, senior Apple executives said Friday. If that hadn’t happened, Apple said, a backup of the information the government was seeking may have been accessible…

The executives said the company had been in regular discussions with the government since early January, and that it proposed four different ways to recover the information the government is interested in without building a back door. One of those methods would have involved connecting the phone to a known wifi network.

So all of this "we need a back door to prevent terrorism" is a false flag fallacy.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Ahh, gotcha. I knew there was a question about the torture but couldn't find it. Of course my answer is no, and if you ask would I want everyone's phone info to be made available to the FBI just so they (might) find a few bad people, again I say no and agree with you. I am not supporting a blanket-wide skeleton key or whatever you want to call it for the government to be able to spy on anyone's phone anytime, not by a long shot. I do say there are times when (through our legal system of checks and balances, imperfect though it may be) investigations and "invasions" of privacy are warranted; and this is one of them. I also have enough faith in our system and government that it would not be abused, although understand there have been abuses in the past and that could be a valid concern, still choose to have faith. Lastly, I honestly believe there is a method Apple could accomplish this, without handing over the "skeleton key" to every IPhone in the world, granted it could be expensive and difficult. I have no technical expertise to back this belief up, just my experience as an Engineer.

Let's agree on one thing, something I promised to and will pray about; that there are no more terrorist attacks and no more innocent people slaughtered. Maybe naive on my part to hope for such a thing, but still I will pray for it.

What we have agreed on is exactly Apple's contention; If you make it for one, you are making it for all.

I agree with you on the last part... No one wants to see another terrorist attack whether home or abroad

[77T]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I really don't think it's the same thing... IF you had created the code, then yes, but of course not if you just manufactured the pen and paper. Apple created the security code. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point Paul

If you disbelieve Apples contention that there is no unlocking utility, then it would be different.

But if you believe there is no utility to force an unlock - then I suggest it is the same.

Apple created a passcode function.

The pen and paper is a metaphor for passcode. The pen writes anything the user wants, but doesn't erase data nor interprets it.

Apple provided users a passcode to lock a phone. And no way to unlock it if it is forgotten or phone is lost and another person tried to open it.

Their logic was you would lose all data after a certain number of failed attempts. One would have to rebuild their phone from last backup. So if you believe their contention, they have nothing to provide DOJ/FBI. To obey the order would mean creating something - but I understand many people disbelieve Apple's contention.

I understand your passion on the topic so am only sharing in spirit of communication. Not advocating one side over another.


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[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by dalip

I found this useful : https://medium.com/p/be24163bdfa

Yes, very good. It doesn't add anything to the debate (same as this topic for the last cpl pages, hence I stopped posting) but the detail about how the iPhone works is interesting.

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by HL65

Agree 100% gentlemen and I also hope Apple stands firm! A very tricky subject indeed and not as simple as some here would like to think or believe. Thanks for posting link Dalip!

I don't believe anyone commenting on this subject here, thinks it is simple or there is a simple solution. I believe the comments are just the opposite, it's a very complex and sticky situation. IMHO..

[seand442]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

Apple ID was changed AFTER police had custody of the phone
http://9to5mac.com/2016/02/19/apple-...-fbi-backdoor/
So all of this "we need a back door to prevent terrorism" is a false flag fallacy.

I read this as well and have seen different stories as to who was responsible. Someone at the county or Law enforcement. If it was law enforcement, then they screwed the pooch big time. There is protocol for handling electronic devices and they most likely strayed from that. That's on them.
If someone with the county remotely reset it, which is the other story I read, someone's ass needs to be hooked up right now for tampering with evidence and the fbi should probably look into that person a little bit.

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

I don't believe anyone commenting on this subject here, thinks it is simple or there is a simple solution. I believe the comments are just the opposite, it's a very complex and sticky situation. IMHO..

You are dead on with this.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by 77T

If you disbelieve Apples contention that there is no unlocking utility, then it would be different.

But if you believe there is no utility to force an unlock - then I suggest it is the same.

Apple created a passcode function.

The pen and paper is a metaphor for passcode. The pen writes anything the user wants, but doesn't erase data nor interprets it.

Apple provided users a passcode to lock a phone. And no way to unlock it if it is forgotten or phone is lost and another person tried to open it.

Their logic was you would lose all data after a certain number of failed attempts. One would have to rebuild their phone from last backup. So if you believe their contention, they have nothing to provide DOJ/FBI. To obey the order would mean creating something - but I understand many people disbelieve Apple's contention.

I understand your passion on the topic so am only sharing in spirit of communication. Not advocating one side over another.


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Ahhh, understand now Paul, thanks. And you are right, I think it boils down to Apple's contention that there is no way to control this once the phone is hacked. Only my opinion as I have no technical expertise on the subject but I say Boulderdash. There must be and Apple is either refusing because they don't want to expend the resources (which they should amply charge the Feds for) or they want the publicity of a court action, or they are trying to make a point. My belief is the safety of our country and a duty to those victims and families is more important then all three of those.

Thanks again Paul for clarifying, I am slow some (most) times.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

I don't believe anyone commenting on this subject here, thinks it is simple or there is a simple solution. I believe the comments are just the opposite, it's a very complex and sticky situation. IMHO..

This is a very complex and sticky situation but, and I don't mean to speak for HL65 (Conner?), there have been comments made suggesting there was a simple solution, whereby Apple just gives what the FBI wants.

[77T]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

This is a very complex and sticky situation but, and I don't mean to speak for Conner, there have been comments made suggesting there was a simple solution, whereby Apple just gives what the FBI wants.

I think some people in another 3-initialed agency have already designed the solution. But neither FBI/DOJ can get it. Maybe CIA?


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[HL65]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

I don't believe anyone commenting on this subject here, thinks it is simple or there is a simple solution. I believe the comments are just the opposite, it's a very complex and sticky situation. IMHO..

Yes I do believe some and I said some do believe it is a simple solution in that Apple should simply comply. IMHO...

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by HL65

Yes I do believe some and I said some do believe it is a simple solution in that Apple should simply comply. IMHO...

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by hl65

yes i do believe some and i said some do believe it is a simple solution in that apple should simply comply. Imho...

Originally Posted by knappo 1307

x3

[Brenngun]

Haven't seen this posted before so in case anyone's interested here's the actual docket. An interesting read.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...sst-iPhone.txt

[rr-nyc]

Now San Bernardino has taken their own stand by calling the FBI liars. http://gizmodo.com/san-bernardino-co...ium=socialflow


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[seand442]

This is turning into a sandwich of epic proportions.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by seand442

This is turning into a sandwich of epic proportions.

Absolutely spot on

[Kevan]

For the last 15 years of my service I worked in covert ops and intelligence. I watched the developments roll out of the use of the "secure"digital network, that we would never be able to access. With the development of communication, then so the development of investigation into that intelligence source progressed.

I went from simple paper applications to days of electronic submissions to gain the relevant lawful access to such intelligence.

People are plotting, planning and executing some of the most despicable crimes against humanity via telephones and the internet. It is the responsibility of suppliers to engage with the authorities to ensure the safety of the public at large.

It is the responsibility of the authorities not to abuse those techniques.

Get the bloody phone hacked Apple, before more tragedies take place.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Kevan

For the last 15 years of my service I worked in covert ops and intelligence. I watched the developments roll out of the use of the "secure"digital network, that we would never be able to access. With the development of communication, then so the development of investigation into that intelligence source progressed.

I went from simple paper applications to days of electronic submissions to gain the relevant lawful access to such intelligence.

People are plotting, planning and executing some of the most despicable crimes against humanity via telephones and the internet. It is the responsibility of suppliers to engage with the authorities to ensure the safety of the public at large.

It is the responsibility of the authorities not to abuse those techniques.

Get the bloody phone hacked Apple, before more tragedies take place.

But they have abused, and can be expected to continue to do so. If we learned nothing else from Snowden, it's that the intelligence services cannot be trusted to stay within the confines of the law, much less within any sort of agreement with a technology company. If they get this capability they will abuse it.

This notion that there is a treasure trove of information on the phone that unlocks world terrorist networks is a red herring, intended to distract from the governments real purpose. The FBI has provided no public evidence that would lead us to expect that the device provides anymore data than they have already obtained from other investigative techniques.

People have been plotting and planning heinous acts for millennia, and will continue to do so. The framers of the US constitution recognized that protecting the citizens from the government was more important than the minor increment of additional safety giving the government control would provide. Simply stated, "just get the phone hacked" is an extraordinarily subversive attack on personal privacy and is a far greater threat to freedom than any terrorist cell presents.

[goin camping]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

But they have abused, and can be expected to continue to do so. If we learned nothing else from Snowden, it's that the intelligence services cannot be trusted to stay within the confines of the law, much less within any sort of agreement with a technology company. If they get this capability they will abuse it.

This notion that there is a treasure trove of information on the phone that unlocks world terrorist networks is a red herring, intended to distract from the governments real purpose. The FBI has provided no public evidence that would lead us to expect that the device provides anymore data than they have already obtained from other investigative techniques.

People have been plotting and planning heinous acts for millennia, and will continue to do so. The framers of the US constitution recognized that protecting the citizens from the government was more important than the minor increment of additional safety giving the government control would provide. Simply stated, "just get the phone hacked" is an extraordinarily subversive attack on personal privacy and is a far greater threat to freedom than any terrorist cell presents.

That was a brilliant summation of facts, history and human nature.