Would you still tip when restaurants start to pay full minimum wage?

[tyler1980]

if its a "living wage" and not "minimum wage" then a tip can go back to being what its intended for, exceptional service. As it stands now a 15-20% tip is necessary to supplement the wages their employer isnt paying them.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

if its a "living wage" and not "minimum wage" then a tip can go back to being what its intended for, exceptional service. As it stands now a 15-20% tip is necessary to supplement the wages their employer isnt paying them.

Read the BBC article I posted above.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by dmash

This is the exact reason a Bell Captain makes salary and get no tips and a Bell Man doesn't and get tips.

But isn’t that just the fact that we tend to tip those we are in contact with and not those behind the scenes. Which is why the wait staff have to share with bartenders, and others.

Which is the reason I found it bizarre that hotels want me to tip housekeeping whom I never see or have contact with. Who’s next the hotel pool cleaner and gardener/landscaping staff?

[Art 1]

Originally Posted by Blansky

But isn’t that just the fact that we tend to tip those we are in contact with and not those behind the scenes. Which is why the wait staff have to share with bartenders, and others.

Which is the reason I found it bizarre that hotels want me to tip housekeeping whom I never see or have contact with. Who’s next the hotel pool cleaner and gardener/landscaping staff?

We've been tipping housekeeping for years, no one asks. We make it a point to say hello to them and talk to them a bit. Mostly I feel sorry for them as most seem to be single mothers and poor. So $10 or so can really brighten up their day. My wife takes care of it actually. We know it could be us in their shoes.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by pickettt

You’re wrong about me. I do value their service. I just don’t understand why it’s different than any other industry. Do you value your physician’s service or profession? Do you tip him/her?

I do not think I am wrong, just that you compare them to doctors confirms that. If you truly valued their service, as you value a doctor, you would want them being paid handsomely. Obviously a ridiculous comparison and I would also argue you likely spend more time with your server/bartender than you do your physician.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by V25V

Read the BBC article I posted above.

their wages are double US minimum wage although tipped employee minimum wage is lower...generally speaking at minimum wage that is just over $1200 a month for 40 hours per week of work. So if a housekeeper or a waiter was making double what they are making now IMO its a win.

The french waiters in the article are making $2k per month without tips and people still do leave tips, just not as much.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by V25V

I do not think I am wrong, just that you compare them to doctors confirms that. If you truly valued their service, as you value a doctor, you would want them being paid handsomely. Obviously a ridiculous comparison and I would also argue you likely spend more time with your server/bartender than you do your physician.

First, I don’t think you’re wrong, I think we have differing opinions. I ask questions that might help me better understand your view, but they go unanswered. So we don’t get anywhere. Like I said, I do value their service, and I do tip. My beef is not with servers whatsoever. My gripe is with an industry that doesn’t value their employees and leaves it to the discretion of their clientele to pay them.

[Grnvette65]

Originally Posted by pickettt

You’re wrong about me. I do value their service. I just don’t understand why it’s different than any other industry. Do you value your physician’s service or profession? Do you tip him/her?

Agree w the above. In my view the concept of tipping is to show your appreciation for the service beyond a thank you. If someone comes to work at your house to fix or do whatever ( plumber electrical...) and does a neat perfect job in your opinion should you tip them as well or do you expect that? You see a doctor he gives you an antibiotic, you get better.. does that mean you should tip( and not nessisarily money) Shouldnt people take pride in their job and do it to the best of their ability. I travel a fair bit and find that in other countries there seems to be a pride people exude when doing their job that lacks here. I know it’s a generalization and does not apply to everyone.
The culture of tipping is the real debate, people have made pros/cons to the changes coming but in the end it’s just going to equal out the truly exceptional from the really bad if the culture of tipping changes.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

their wages are double US minimum wage although tipped employee minimum wage is lower...generally speaking at minimum wage that is just over $1000 a month for 40 hours per week of work. So if a housekeeper or a waiter was making at a minimum double what they are making now IMO its a win.

The french waiters in the article are making $2k per month without tips and people still do leave tips, just not as much.

But they are still relying on tips for their income.

Originally Posted by pickettt

First, I don’t think you’re wrong, I think we have differing opinions. I ask questions that might help me better understand your view, but they go unanswered. So we don’t get anywhere. Like I said, I do value their service, and I do tip. My beef is not with servers whatsoever. My gripe is with an industry that doesn’t value their employees and leaves it to the discretion of their clientele to pay them.

You asked why doctors are not tipped and servers are. Do servers require medical school? Do they warrant high salaries? Should restaurants pay high salaries for them or better yet, how in the world could they afford to do so? The article I posted shows that some countries who pay their servers these higher wages, still rely on tips for their income and are being hurt by a decline in tips from their local customers. That is exactly what will happen here and all we will be left with are higher tabs at the end of it all.

I rarely get bad service here in the DC area, and I mean RARELY. Tips are what incentivize these folks to do a good job for us and most do. And at the end of the day, they make solid income as a result. If you relegate them to $15/hr and thats it, they would make far less than the current model. All you do is force the restaurants to tack on that additional cost they take onto the bill (either in the menu or a service charge) and I am 100% sure far less people will tip now that they think these service folks are being paid "well". When in reality, they are making less than they were.

If you haven't been in this business ever, I get that you would not understand. But as a few of us in this thread have already said, you would be surprised how much money people make in the business and thinking $15/hr forced upon the restaurant is good for anyone, is false.

[daveathall]

In the UK I leave 10% and believe that to be a fair amount.

I have noticed that there is a trend coming up from London and the south where 12.5 or 15% is added to the bill as a "service charge," one is allowed to have it removed, I dont, I keep it there but pay the amount they ask and leave no tip.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by V25V

If you haven't been in this business ever, I get that you would not understand. But as a few of us in this thread have already said, you would be surprised how much money people make in the business and thinking $15/hr forced upon the restaurant is good for anyone, is false.

another fact, this it being GROSSLY overlooked....is this is bringing on opinions on a Rolex forum....from gentleman who wear $10,000-$20,000 watches. Let's not kid ourselves that this is 'normal' spending behavior and the opinions here are representative of your normal family/couple. Your average person, will not walk into Joe's restaurant, pay 15% more overnight, and tip the server the same thing, when it's explicitly known that the increase in prices are to pay servers a better wage. One needs to realize, we're not solely talking about tippers at upscale steakhouses, but also your local TGI Fridays.

Servers will get screwed on this model, 99.99% sure of it.

[brandrea]

I like tipping when I receive good service. I find it hard not to tip in certain countries where tipping is not customary

[Zakalwe]

I've been to the States many times now so I'm relaxed about the tipping culture, but when younger and more anxious I used to be terrified of making a tipping faux pas and getting into a fight. I read stories about people being chased out of NYC restaurants for "only" tipping 15%. Then there was the question of who you tip - waiters? Sure. Bellboys? Yes, but how much? Concierge? Note sure about that one. Do you tip the barber? Bloody minefield and all so seemingly inconsistent.

My personal experience is that American service is better than British service. Yes as alluded to above it can be over-familiar and cloying, but then the typical American is by nature compared to the average cold-as-a-wet-fish reserved Brit. I figure part of the reason is that American waiters have to earn their tips, whereas our lot get paid what they get paid and so long as they don't curl out a turd onto a customers plate and can manage to be able to write well enough to take an order, their performance doesn't really matter. I do wonder if the American system changed what that would do to the attitude of the wait staff, even if ultimately they ended up taking home the same amounts.

As an aside the best service here is provided by foreigners, especially continental Europeans. I believe it's a legitimate career path in France, with higher education qualifications and training available.

[Snow-Dweller]

I’m in the restaurant business in France. My staff are well paid. Tips go into a pot and are shared equally amongst the entire team, so the bus boys get the same amount as the manager or head chef. For normal waiting staff the tips are equal to around 40% of their wages.

Service is included by law in France. If the service has been good then I usually leave a tip of around 5%. If the service has not been good then I don’t. I’m a regular visitor to San Francisco (where I usually find the service to be wonderful) and I’m happy to leave a tip of 20-25%. Again, if the service has not been good then I don’t.

I find both of these systems to be quite acceptable, unlike in the UK. There, you have to check your bill carefully. Sometimes it’s without service, sometimes it’s with service included, often it’s with 12 or 15% added to the bottom of your bill whether the service has been good, bad, or indifferent. It’s a crappy non-system.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Snow-Dweller

I’m in the restaurant business in France. My staff are well paid. Tips go into a pot and are shared equally amongst the entire team, so the bus boys get the same amount as the manager or head chef. For normal waiting staff the tips are equal to around 40% of their wages.

Service is included by law in France. If the service has been good then I usually leave a tip of around 5%. If the service has not been good then I don’t. I’m a regular visitor to San Francisco (where I usually find the service to be wonderful) and I’m happy to leave a tip of 20-25%. Again, if the service has not been good then I don’t.

I find both of these systems to be quite acceptable, unlike in the UK. There, you have to check your bill carefully. Sometimes it’s without service, sometimes it’s with service included, often it’s with 12 or 15% added to the bottom of your bill whether the service has been good, bad, or indifferent. It’s a crappy non-system.

The manager on duty is tipped out the same as a server?

Wow, that would have never flied at any place I worked.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by dmash

The manager on duty is tipped out the same as a server?

Wow, that would have never flied at any place I worked.

Me either. But 40% of their wages for normal wait staff confirms they damn well need their tips.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by V25V

Me either. But 40% of their wages for normal wait staff confirms they damn well need their tips.

Haha yeah.

A good night for me bartending was something like......25x my wage. I honestly never even cared about my 'salary'.

[bayerische]

Tipping in the us is out of hand. Service should be included.

That also means the wages should be on a proper level.

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I have to pay my employees, why do restaurants rely on customers to pay theirs? And customers are shamed if they don’t. I’m in the wrong racket. That being said, I tip because I’m blessed with more than I need and don’t mind sharing a little.

Well said , we’ll said ....

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I have to pay my employees, why do restaurants rely on customers to pay theirs? And customers are shamed if they don’t. I’m in the wrong racket. That being said, I tip because I’m blessed with more than I need and don’t mind sharing a little.

I agree. Its the same principle as airlines charging extra for everything. Then they can advertise "low fares" even though you end up paying way more anyway. Restaurants are so reluctant to increase prices to cover the salaries they should be paying anyway as they think people wont eat there so they prefer to nickel and dime them with having them need to leave excessive tips.

Plus the cynical side of me thinks a large chunk of customers like the control of withholding wages if they are in a bad mood or feel things weren't perfect. Meanwhile in their job if they have a bad day, they still get paid. Thats why they prefer the tip status quo.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by bayerische

Tipping in the us is out of hand. Service should be included.

That also means the wages should be on a proper level.

Its as if nobody reads anything posted prior to posting....

If the wages are on a "proper level", the servers will still be reliant on tips for their income. How does that help anyone?

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by V25V

Its as if nobody reads anything posted prior to posting....

If the wages are on a "proper level", the servers will still be reliant on tips for their income. How does that help anyone?

i think you are misunderstanding what we are saying. They should make a living wage without needing tips. Anything above that great, the tip is a bonus. Currently tips are needed to make the bare minimum to live on in addition to their extremely low wages. That is what isnt right. If I get a bonus at work, its a bonus. All my bills are paid before that.

[Snow-Dweller]

Originally Posted by dmash

The manager on duty is tipped out the same as a server?

Wow, that would have never flied at any place I worked.

Originally Posted by V25V

Me either. But 40% of their wages for normal wait staff confirms they damn well need their tips.

You’re missing the point. My staff are well paid. Well above a “living wage”. The tips are on top of this. They’re a complete bonus. That’s why they’re shared out equally.

And I always have a queue of people wanting to work for me.

[Snow-Dweller]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i think you are misunderstanding what we are saying. They should make a living wage without needing tips. Anything above that great, the tip is a bonus. Currently tips are needed to make the bare minimum to live on in addition to their extremely low wages. That is what isnt right. If I get a bonus at work, its a bonus. All my bills are paid before that.

Well said.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Grnvette65

Agree w the above. In my view the concept of tipping is to show your appreciation for the service beyond a thank you. If someone comes to work at your house to fix or do whatever ( plumber electrical...) and does a neat perfect job in your opinion should you tip them as well or do you expect that? You see a doctor he gives you an antibiotic, you get better.. does that mean you should tip( and not nessisarily money) Shouldnt people take pride in their job and do it to the best of their ability. I travel a fair bit and find that in other countries there seems to be a pride people exude when doing their job that lacks here. I know it’s a generalization and does not apply to everyone.
The culture of tipping is the real debate, people have made pros/cons to the changes coming but in the end it’s just going to equal out the truly exceptional from the really bad if the culture of tipping changes.

I don't tip doctors because the gratuity is built into their fee. I’m paying $200 to be seen curtly for 6 minutes, or worse, to be seen by a nurse practitioner. The system is rigged to overpay for the level of service provided.

I tip tradesmen if the service is prompt and they clean up their mess. It’s always appreciated. Wait staff is no different. Good service is worth a good gratuity.

Minimum wage is not enough to live on. I’ll still be tipping based on the service provided.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I don't tip doctors because the gratuity is built into their fee. I’m paying $200 to be seen curtly for 6 minutes, or worse, to be seen by a nurse practitioner. The system is rigged to overpay for the level of service provided.

I tip tradesmen if the service is prompt and they clean up their mess. It’s always appreciated. Wait staff is no different. Good service is worth a good gratuity.

Minimum wage is not enough to live on. I’ll still be tipping based on the service provided.

Well said A.

I can’t help myself either

[imperio]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Give them a fair salary for their jobs that they can live on. I think tipping should be voluntary and not automatically.

Tip is given if they did something extra or good for the customer. It is the employer's duty to ensure that

employees can pay their bills, not customers IMHO.

I beg to differ... It is the employee's responsibility to ensure he can pay his bills, not the employer nor customers (regardless of profession).

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by V25V

But they are still relying on tips for their income.



You asked why doctors are not tipped and servers are. Do servers require medical school? Do they warrant high salaries? Should restaurants pay high salaries for them or better yet, how in the world could they afford to do so? The article I posted shows that some countries who pay their servers these higher wages, still rely on tips for their income and are being hurt by a decline in tips from their local customers. That is exactly what will happen here and all we will be left with are higher tabs at the end of it all.

I rarely get bad service here in the DC area, and I mean RARELY. Tips are what incentivize these folks to do a good job for us and most do. And at the end of the day, they make solid income as a result. If you relegate them to $15/hr and thats it, they would make far less than the current model. All you do is force the restaurants to tack on that additional cost they take onto the bill (either in the menu or a service charge) and I am 100% sure far less people will tip now that they think these service folks are being paid "well". When in reality, they are making less than they were.

If you haven't been in this business ever, I get that you would not understand. But as a few of us in this thread have already said, you would be surprised how much money people make in the business and thinking $15/hr forced upon the restaurant is good for anyone, is false.

You are right, I have not worked in that business, but I have worked a minimum wage job. When I could not afford to live on that anymore, I invested in my marketability, and my wages increased. But I’m not arguing as to who deserves what pay. To be clear, my issue is not HOW MUCH servers are paid, but rather WHO is responsible for paying them. i have a business, and my business has expenses, and salaries are one of those expenses. What effect will a change in the pay structure make? That we’ll have to see.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i think you are misunderstanding what we are saying. They should make a living wage without needing tips. Anything above that great, the tip is a bonus. Currently tips are needed to make the bare minimum to live on in addition to their extremely low wages. That is what isnt right. If I get a bonus at work, its a bonus. All my bills are paid before that.

But if they are still getting 40% of their wages in addition in tips, then they are in fact needing it. If your income went down 40%, would that be good?

My point is that $15/hr here will still need tips to meet their compensation goals. All the while, the costs for customers will go up and they will be less inclined to tip. So who hurts here? Us, the servers/bartenders, in addition to the restaurants. Those like you and I may still tip but I am certain that many will not. As mash indicated prior, we are a small pool of people on a Rolex forum..... we do not represent the average person out there taking their family to dinner on a budget. They are the masses and they are the ones who will view this as something they no longer need to do if/when there is a "service charge" or menu prices go up 20% or more.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by pickettt

You are right, I have not worked in that business, but I have worked a minimum wage job. When I could not afford to live on that anymore, I invested in my marketability, and my wages increased. To be clear, my issue is not HOW MUCH servers are paid, but rather WHO is responsible for paying them. i have a business, and my business has expenses, and salaries are one of those expenses. What effect will a change in the pay structure make? That we’ll have to see.

So you want them to be happy, right? So if a server makes say $80K/year, which is totally possible, a restaurant should pay that person $40/hr? You do understand as a business owner that this additional expense has to come from somewhere, so where do you recover that? In your pricing, which you pass along to your customer? Or, you cut down on staff/salaries to lean things out? I am a business owner now as well, I get it.

And from your second sentence above, I can see where you are trying to go here and I do not disagree with you there. But by making that statement, it would seem you feel their value is only "x" and if they want to make more, go to school to better yourself and get a "real" career. Many people in that business do not feel the same way and are perfectly happy with what they do and how much they make. This new model you are trying to go towards would completely upset that.