The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

First, a giant thank you to all of the TRF experts that helped me realize the mistake that I had made and for prompting the valuable lesson that I needed to learn, apparently!

In what I thought was a decent transaction, I had acquired a 1970 "Red Sub." In part because the watch had been serviced/restored by Rolliworks in May of 2019, and in part because I was sort of an idiot, I never thought to consider that the hour markers and hands had both, at some point, been re-lumed.

Thanks to some respectful and expert TRFers, it's been highlighted for me. Aside from a bit of embarrassment, Imm now faced with trying to figure out...

What next????

Do I take this thing to RSC and try my very best to get the proper, though elusive, "red service dial" (I assume they'd change the bezel insert too)? Do I have one of the expert watchmakers do their best to "restore" the dial ("restore" patina...I know)? Do I nothing aside from fully disclosing the condition and trying to sell it? Do I do nothing and wear it (I'm not the guy who cares about the re-lume very much but I also hesitate to wear around an acrylic domed watch from 1970 on a daily basis). No matter what, I'm going to take a bath on this watch, I understand but...

If you were me, what would you do?

Thanks for your input!

[TimeLord2]

Post pictures. Sounds very nice, but if you are worried about resale, you can certainly source some period correct hands. I'm not sure if you are indicating the dial is also service. If that is the case, there have been a few red sub articles on this forum with owners who have had the dial replaced by Rolex Geneva, after careful consideration and an evaluation by Rolex, with a period correct version. Certainly worth a try. Besides, they are rare and will most likely increase in value over time. The watch is meant to be worn, it's much more resilient than you think—even at 50 years old. 200 Metres of water = 284.46 Pounds per square inch.

Actually just saw the listing, I think anyone would be happy to own that gem. Source some period correct hands.

[swish77]

I’d try to return the watch if the relume wasn’t disclosed, and/or the description was otherwise misleading, such as “all original.”

How long ago did you buy it and was it a seller some of us might know?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Post pictures. Sounds very nice, but if you are worried about resale, you can certainly source some period correct hands. I'm not sure if you are indicating the dial is also service. If that is the case, there have been a few red sub articles on this forum with owners who have had the dial replaced by Rolex Geneva, after careful consideration and an evaluation by Rolex, with a period correct version. Certainly worth a try. Besides, they are rare and will most likely increase in value over time. The watch is meant to be worn, it's much more resilient than you think—even at 50 years old. 200 Metres of water = 284.46 Pounds per square inch.

Actually just saw the listing, I think anyone would be happy to own that gem. Source some period correct hands.

Not a service dial, but re-lumed hour markers...

[steversaurus]

If you can't return it, I would just keep it and wear it. I would probably even try to get the dial and hands relumed again to a more pleasing look.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by swish77

I’d try to return the watch if the relume wasn’t disclosed, and/or the description was otherwise misleading, such as “all original.”

How long ago did you buy it and was it a seller some of us might know?

It was described as:

"Excellent MK IV Red Dial with creamy plots and matching hands"

Re-lume wasn't disclosed. I've had the watch for about a month now.

Seller is a member here but not really a "re-seller" or known seller.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Not a service dial, but re-lumed hour markers...

A little lax on my reading comprehension. Still might be worth trying to contact one of the TRF people who have replaced the dial with a "service" but period correct version from Rolex. Swish77 does have a great point though. If the re-lume job was done and not disclosed, that's not cool and perhaps you should contact the seller.

[Cozmopak]

I think it would be educational for some of the newer members on this forum if photos were posted and why a relume is suspected could be explained.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

A little lax on my reading comprehension. Still might be worth trying to contact one of the TRF people who have replaced the dial with a "service" but period correct version from Rolex. Swish77 does have a great point though. If the re-lume job was done and not disclosed, that's not cool and perhaps you should contact the seller.

I've sent him a text asking what he knows about it. It was clearly done some time ago as it's not all that active. I'd say it (hour markers and hands) glows for about 15-20 seconds or so after I put a light to it. The hour markers and hands were probably re-lumed at the same time but they are weak enough that I can't believe it happened only six or so months ago (Rolliworks service in May 2019).

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by swish77

I’d try to return the watch if the relume wasn’t disclosed, and/or the description was otherwise misleading, such as “all original.”

How long ago did you buy it and was it a seller some of us might know?

I can empathise with lots of things connected with buying and selling, it's an art in itself, but we should always, always remember; CAVEAT EMPTOR; it helps stem the bloody nose when you have made a bad deal. Sometimes you have to walk away, wipe your nose, dry your eyes and start again.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Cozmopak

I think it would be educational for some of the newer members on this forum if photos were posted and why a relume is suspected could be explained.

As for why the relume is suspected, it is my belief that hour markers of the 1970 vintage should not glow at all given that the original tritium from 1970 would be long dead (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Here's a picture:

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

I can empathise with lots of things connected with buying and selling, it's an art in itself, but we should always, always remember; CAVEAT EMPTOR; it helps stem the bloody nose when you have made a bad deal. Sometimes you have to walk away, wipe your nose, dry your eyes and start again.

Amen. I'm usually fairly good at that...missed the mark on this one.

[Old Expat Beast]

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

[Noonan]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

Interesting. Isn't the total decay life of Tritium shorter than that amount of time? I didn't think that was possible.

[Cozmopak]

That’s my understanding as well. Is there anything about the appearance of the lume that raises suspicion?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by steversaurus

If you can't return it, I would just keep it and wear it. I would probably even try to get the dial and hands relumed again to a more pleasing look.

It's more that it's re-lumed at all than that it's re-lumed poorly:

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

So I might just be being paranoid? I just timed it: Within 23 seconds, the markers and hands were dark but the pip kept shining.

[Juhuatai]

I think just by looking at the plots it's pretty clear that's a relume. Especially in the macro photos you have in your FS post. Also everyone, tritium does not glow by itself. It emits electrons consistently via beta decay which then activates a phosphor in the lume that then glows. I've never seen a 1970 sub glow. Latest would be 67/68 IMO.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Cozmopak

That’s my understanding as well. Is there anything about the appearance of the lume that raises suspicion?

Not necessarily; I was literally only judging it on the fact that I didn't think there is anyway that the tritium markers would still glow...

Here's a closer pic (alot of shadows of crystal scuffs projecting on to dial):

[Old Expat Beast]

Some opinions here, with post 12 mentioning red subs. https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=253819

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

I think just by looking at the plots it's pretty clear that's a relume. Also everyone, tritium does not glow by itself. Tritium activates a phosphor in the lume that then glows. I've never seen a 1970 sub glow. Latest would be 67/68 IMO.

That was the thinking that brought me here...

What would you do now if you were me?

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

That was the thinking that brought me here...

What would you do now if you were me?

You need to contact the seller to get a refund. If they won't refund you, it depends on what you want. If I was keeping it, I could probably get over it. But if you're selling it, you're in a tight spot.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Some opinions here, with post 12 mentioning red subs. https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=253819

Thank you, Adam. I might be slightly more confused, but all of this is great to know!

[Cozmopak]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

I think just by looking at the plots it's pretty clear that's a relume. Especially in the macro photos you have in your FS post. Also everyone, tritium does not glow by itself. It emits electrons consistently via beta decay which then activates a phosphor in the lume that then glows. I've never seen a 1970 sub glow. Latest would be 67/68 IMO.

Can I ask what about the appearance makes you suspect a relume? I was under the impression that some tritium plots will still emit a glow, even from the 1970s.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

You need to contact the seller to get a refund. If they won't refund you, it depends on what you want. If I was keeping it, I could probably get over it. But if you're selling it, you're in a tight spot.

Thanks for the input!

[Styles Bitchley]

For the record, my 1970 1680 dial and hands emit nothing. Zip. Not even for a second.

To my eye, that resume looks like a nice job (if it is one). But I’m not very picky.

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by Cozmopak

Can I ask what about the appearance makes you suspect a relume? I was under the impression that some tritium plots will still emit a glow, even from the 1970s.

Uneven application, 5 in particular looks bad. I've never seen a watch past 1970 emit a glow or heard of it. I've personally had 3 watches around 1970 and all were dead.

Also 23 seconds is an long amount of time to emit glow. It would fade after 5-10 seconds. That image posted by Cloudchaser the lume is blazing (for such an old watch)!

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Thanks for the input!

If they won’t refund you see if you can trade it on something worst case scenario

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

Uneven application, 5 in particular looks bad. I've never seen a watch past 1970 emit a glow or heard of it. I've personally had 3 watches around 1970 and all were dead.

Also 23 seconds is an long amount of time to emit glow. It would fade after 5-10 seconds. That image posted by Cloudchaser the lume is blazing (for such an old watch)!

FWIW, it starts fading immediately and is completely dark within 23 seconds.

And I'm not arguing that it is or isn't a re-lume, necessarily. I assumed it was because of my own lack of information.

But it sounds like there are two separate questions at play: 1) Is there a possibility that it still glows? 2) Is this specific example a re-lume?

As to the first question, there are numerous experts with numerous opinions, obviously. As to the second, I don't know and can't tell. You seem certain in light of other experts being less certain. I admit to being confused.

Any L.A. or O.C. based vintage experts that would have a look in the metal?

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

That was the thinking that brought me here...

What would you do now if you were me?

Keep it. It's still a fab watch.