Why does Lange's 2nd market price is so weak?!!

[vman]

Discounts on Lange are narrowing, btw. I called a few dealers recently and I could not get the usually mentioned 20-25% off. Boutiques won't discount at all and ADs will give some but not what it is used to be.

Lange is fantastic in terms of quality though and I don't see prices or the brand going downhill any time soon. If anything, the brand is has a tall ceiling.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by vman

Discounts on Lange are narrowing, btw. I called a few dealers recently and I could not get the usually mentioned 20-25% off. Boutiques won't discount at all and ADs will give some but not what it is used to be.

Lange is fantastic in terms of quality though and I don't see prices or the brand going downhill any time soon. If anything, the brand is has a tall ceiling.

Agree with this

[dchang81]

I mean most higher end brands are benefiting from watch mania. Used lange prices have gotten fairly strong in my opinion. Good for them not me as I don't have one yet

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by dchang81

I mean most higher end brands are benefiting from watch mania. Used lange prices have gotten fairly strong in my opinion. Good for them not me as I don't have one yet

I always find it interesting watching a TM video that supposedly the finishing on FPJ’s is not up to the standard of Lange.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I always find it interesting watching a TM video that supposedly the finishing on FPJ’s is not up to the standard of Lange.

If you haven't already read the Lange website about the various finishing. I had to go back with a 10x loupe to spot it all.

[dchang81]

I do remember FPJ's thing before was movement engineering, not as much fine finishing. Particularly remember QC issues and rough looking movements but seems like that's not the case now.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by solowarrior

Everyone knows their quality comparable to PP, or even better. Their annual production is much less than PP, so I assume there should be a very high demand, which would usually make the better resale value. I don't understand what is going on there. Bad management or marketing?

To date, Lange has never tried to become an instantly recognizable brand like Patek or Rolex. I've heard the CEO talk about the under-the-radar nature of the brand during presentations to business school students, and it's quite interesting. I'd say their marketing is more deliberate than bad/ineffective. And to be clear, I'm not defending the brand like a dutiful fanboy. They've made quite a few marketing mistakes in the past that have cost them sales.

[One of my favorite long-term marketing blunders involved the Langematik Perpetual Calendar. The watch has a single button that advances all calendar functions by 1 day with each push. It's genius! When you first get the watch, you have to set each calendar function separately, but you never have to do that again if you don't wear the watch for a while because of that multi-function corrector button. But throughout the 18ish-year run of this model, Lange SAs weren't trained to market/highlight this feature when showing the watch to potential clients. As a result, even many collectors and WISs don't know about this incredibly convenient feature, and they think the button only changes the date like it does on the less complicated "big date" models.]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

I think the pre-owned discount is narrowing. 12 months ago a 403 pt datograph could be bought for $40k. Today no one will sell for less than $50k...

I didn't realize this until I just checked, after you pointed it out. You're right! For over 10 years, you could get a preowned PT Datograph (often with a deployant, if you got lucky), full set, for less than $45K USD. We'll see if those days return.

I also noticed that a well-known, reputable preowned dealer is is asking $69,000 USD for a Lange 1 101.001 (yellow gold/champagne dial) because it is an early model with a solid caseback. Up until now, these models sold at a discount to those with the usual transparent caseback (101.021) because everyone wants to see the movement and not the solid caseback. The fact that it was "early" didn't command a premium. and 1-2 years ago a preowned 101.001 was more like a $19,000 watch than a $69,000 watch. Of course, it's not yet sold and it may not sell for anywhere near $69K, but the high asking price from a seller who knows the market is notable.

[In addition, I was VERY amused to see that a yellow gold/black dial "Yellowjacket" Datograph 403.041 fetched over $193,000 USD at the Phillips auction on November 8th!]

Originally Posted by EEpro

If you haven't already read the Lange website about the various finishing. I had to go back with a 10x loupe to spot it all.

I am curious to know if FPJ has improved his finishing in recent years. The finishing on many of his older movements was pretty unremarkable. Most of them were pretty enough at first glance but not anywhere near as well finished as Lange movements. I have a bit of a negative bias because I have an FPJ with an especially dull movement that was always disappointing compared to how nice the dial is. I actually wish it had a solid caseback!

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by CFR

I also noticed that a well-known, reputable preowned dealer is is asking $69,000 USD for a Lange 1 101.001 (yellow gold/champagne dial) because it is an early model with a solid caseback. Up until now, these models sold at a discount to those with the usual transparent caseback (101.021) because everyone wants to see the movement and not the solid caseback. The fact that it was "early" didn't command a premium. and 1-2 years ago a preowned 101.001 was more like a $19,000 watch than a $69,000 watch. Of course, it's not yet sold and it may not sell for anywhere near $69K, but the high asking price from a seller who knows the market is notable.

[In addition, I was VERY amused to see that a yellow gold/black dial "Yellowjacket" Datograph 403.041 fetched over $193,000 USD at the Phillips auction on November 8th!]

Early pieces from the genesis of Lange are starting to generate collector interest, there is always a new limited edition or a new special model from all brands, but there are only a few pieces from the 1994 launch collection introduced to the world by Walter Lange himself and the great Gunter Blumlein.

[WatchEater666]

Like the posters above said, I think people are finally clueing in to what a ridiculously good deal used Lange is. You cant really find more bang for buck than a used Datograph.

[scrappy]

Originally Posted by CFR

I didn't realize this until I just checked, after you pointed it out. You're right! For over 10 years, you could get a preowned PT Datograph (often with a deployant, if you got lucky), full set, for less than $45K USD. We'll see if those days return.

How rare is a PT Dato Up/Down on deployant?I purchased mine new several years ago in that configuration but have since realized how uncommon the deployant clasp is.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Early pieces from the genesis of Lange are starting to generate collector interest, there is always a new limited edition or a new special model from all brands, but there are only a few pieces from the 1994 launch collection introduced to the world by Walter Lange himself and the great Gunter Blumlein.

Funny you mention this. I was at an event in the early 2000s with Walter Lange. I speak no German, and he spoke little or no English, so he used a translator (who would later become his daughter-in-law, I believe). After the structured part of the event, when people were mingling, he tapped me on the shoulder and motioned for me to follow him. I don't remember what prompted him to do this -- I think it was because I was looking at his personal watch earlier (yellow gold Tourbillon Pour Le Merite #1/150, one of the original four models) -- but I do remember being surprised. He led me over to a table where an object projector was set up, took off his Tourbillon PLM, and put it under the projector so that the fusee and chain mechanism was visible up on the screen. At this point, a few other folks started to notice and wander over. Through his translator, he explained how the mechanism worked. I remember how he spoke with such passion and pride. You could see it in his eyes. I never forgot that moment.

Of those four original models, we know that the Tourbillon PLM (the only one that was a limited edition) and the Lange 1 became quite popular. But the other two, the Saxonia and the Arkade, never quite took off (and were relatively small in size). It'll be interesting to see if people ever develop an interest in those early Saxonias and Arkades -- to see if they ever become even a bit collectible.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by scrappy

How rare is a PT Dato Up/Down on deployant?I purchased mine new several years ago in that configuration but have since realized how uncommon the deployant clasp is.

There was a very brief period in 2016 when all Langes sold (a) in the US market and (b) above a certain price point came with a deployant buckle. Otherwise, the "stock model" PT Dato Up/Down (405.031) usually never came with a deployant, but it's pretty common for people to buy the deployant afterwards for watches like the Dato Up/Down. If a customer wanted a deployant up front, then authorized dealers would often be willing to keep the standard tang buckle, supply the deployant with the watch, and upcharge the customer a bit (or maybe they'd throw in the deployant instead of giving a deeper discount).

Fun fact: If a Lange reference number has the letter "F" after it (such as 139.035F), that tells you Lange originally supplied it with a deployant (F = Folding buckle) rather than a tang buckle.

[Most people have the single-folding Lange deployant, which is the most common and the oldest. Lange has two other types of deployants too: a lighter-weight double-folding/butterfly deployant (introduced around 2015 and not sure if it's still offered), and the super cool, heavy-duty, detachable sliding deployant that was first offered on the Lange 31 to provide a clear path for the winding key to fit into the keyhole.]

Sorry not sorry for the long answer. I get super excited about these things lol.

[scrappy]

No need to be sorry, I greatly appreciate the thorough response. I purchased it in North America 3-4 years ago so it lines up.

[fullofboats]

I was just quoted hk23,000 for a wg deployant. I could also trade in the wg pin buckle for hk9,000 and pay the difference.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

I was just quoted hk23,000 for a wg deployant. I could also trade in the wg pin buckle for hk9,000 and pay the difference.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not too bad. $3,200 USD here and require a new strap also.

[subtona]

Opportunity

[CFR]

Originally Posted by EEpro

Not too bad. $3,200 USD here and require a new strap also.

Just curious why new strap is required. Is it because the original strap's length didn't put the deployant in the correct place on your wrist?

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by CFR

Just curious why new strap is required. Is it because the original strap's length didn't put the deployant in the correct place on your wrist?

Looking at the design the standard pin buckle strap can surely be used but AD insists it requires a shorter 12 o'clock side.

I'd love to hear from someone who has used the standard strap.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by EEpro

Looking at the design the standard pin buckle strap can surely be used but AD insists it requires a shorter 12 o'clock side.

I'd love to hear from someone who has used the standard strap.

I’m surprised your AD is telling you to get a shorter strap, my understanding is Lange doesn’t have a different recommendation for a deployant. I have mine on standard straps although I have also used a Patek deployant length strap on my Lange’s which is shorter - not noticed a significant difference in how they wear.

[The GMT Master]

Originally Posted by EEpro

Looking at the design the standard pin buckle strap can surely be used but AD insists it requires a shorter 12 o'clock side.

I'd love to hear from someone who has used the standard strap.

Definitely not necessary, the deployant is designed for the standard straps, Lange don't sell a specific strap for deployants.

Chris

[illiguy]

In five years, Lange will be where relative to peers like PP on the secondary?

I doubt their finishing, durability, and overall haute horology chops will change. Not the German way.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I’m surprised your AD is telling you to get a shorter strap, my understanding is Lange doesn’t have a different recommendation for a deployant. I have mine on standard straps although I have also used a Patek deployant length strap on my Lange’s which is shorter - not noticed a significant difference in how they wear.

That's great news and makes sense based on studying the design. I asked the SA to show me (prove it) but they had none in stock.

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by EEpro

That's great news and makes sense based on studying the design. I asked the SA to show me (prove it) but they had none in stock.

Any strap will fit on any pin buckle or deployant as long as you have the right width - the length doesn't matter for pin or deployant, only for the size of your wrist. 16mm should be the standard width, but just measure your pin buckle/deployant to be sure.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

Any strap will fit on any pin buckle or deployant as long as you have the right width - the length doesn't matter for pin or deployant, only for the size of your wrist. 16mm should be the standard width, but just measure your pin buckle/deployant to be sure.

Totally understood. The question is whether the 12 o'clock side would need to be shorter to keep it centered.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by illiguy

In five years, Lange will be where relative to peers like PP on the secondary?

As long as this bubble stays artificially inflated, that is easily possible imho.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by EEpro

Totally understood. The question is whether the 12 o'clock side would need to be shorter to keep it centered.

'The GMT Master' reply above is official, Chris is from the London Lange Boutique.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by Russell996

'The GMT Master' reply above is official, Chris is from the London Lange Boutique.

I'm going to order one soon and school the SA.

Thank you all!

[CFR]

Originally Posted by EEpro

Totally understood. The question is whether the 12 o'clock side would need to be shorter to keep it centered.

That is indeed the determinative factor. I have a small wrist, 6"/154mm. I can wear a regular or short Lange strap with a tang buckle, no problem, but Lange deployants are far less forgiving. I need custom (short) straps for just about all Langes with deployants. On certain models I can get away with Lange's short strap (rather than a custom strap) with only a bit of discomfort, but it still doesn't fit quite right.

Back when you could order custom Lange straps, I ordered some to use with their deployants. See attached, which was for an Emil Lange 1815 Moonphase 231.035 (36mm case, 19mm lug width). You can see how short the 12 o'clock side is in order for the deployant to be centered on the underside of my wrist (and how long the 6 o'clock side is, to compensate).

Of course, a sensible way to proceed is to first try the deployant with whatever strap is already on the watch and then make your decision.

For reference, a standard Lange strap is 115mm x 75mm; an extra-long Lange strap is 125mm x 85mm; and an extra-short Lange strap is 105mm x 65mm. MSRP on any strap is $370 USD. MSRP on deployants is $3000 for 16mm gold, $3500 for 18mm gold, $7300 for 16mm platinum, and $7800 for 18mm platinum. I assume the $3200 (if that's what your AD quoted you) represents a slightly discounted price for a 16mm gold deployant plus a new strap.

[MCMartiny]

Originally Posted by CFR

That is indeed the determinative factor. I have a small wrist, 6"/154mm. I can wear a regular or short Lange strap with a tang buckle, no problem, but Lange deployants are far less forgiving. I need custom (short) straps for just about all Langes with deployants. On certain models I can get away with Lange's short strap (rather than a custom strap) with only a bit of discomfort, but it still doesn't fit quite right.

Back when you could order custom Lange straps, I ordered some to use with their deployants. See attached, which was for an Emil Lange 1815 Moonphase 231.035 (36mm case, 19mm lug width). You can see how short the 12 o'clock side is in order for the deployant to be centered on the underside of my wrist (and how long the 6 o'clock side is, to compensate).

Of course, a sensible way to proceed is to first try the deployant with whatever strap is already on the watch and then make your decision.

For reference, a standard Lange strap is 115mm x 75mm; an extra-long Lange strap is 125mm x 85mm; and an extra-short Lange strap is 105mm x 65mm. MSRP on any strap is $370 USD. MSRP on deployants is $3000 for 16mm gold, $3500 for 18mm gold, $7300 for 16mm platinum, and $7800 for 18mm platinum. I assume the $3200 (if that's what your AD quoted you) represents a slightly discounted price for a 16mm gold deployant plus a new strap.

I had a similar problem with the standard Lange (single fold) deployant clasp not being centred on my fairly average 7" wrist size. This was using the standard 115mm x 75mm Lange strap. The non-centred clasp resulted in (a) a slight amount of discomfort and more concerning (b) the clasp sometimes unfastened by itself, if I e.g. made a clapping motion.

The friendly and service minded folks in the Lange Boutique changed the clasp to the newer double fold / "butterfly" version which at least for me works a lot better and solves the issue of the single fold clasp randomly unfastening.

So bottom line, I would strongly recommend trying out both versions of the Lange deployant clasp for fit before buying / upgrading to one.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by illiguy

In five years, Lange will be where relative to peers like PP on the secondary?

I doubt their finishing, durability, and overall haute horology chops will change. Not the German way.

Exactly where it is now. Don't secondary market Langes and Pateks sell for similar discounts to retail with the exception of sport models? And, based on the resale market for the Odysseus in SS, Lange can compete there, too.