How to stop the flipping scourge

[rallyx]

Originally Posted by RealMadrid1988

Huh? I thought you were going to say that if the buyer doesn’t, they get blacklisted. But instead it seems like you’re suggesting they be “required” to? That’s nonsensical. No AD has the right to require you to visit their store (or any store) to see a watch they sold you.

Yep, can't even get people to take the vaccine. Conspiracy theorists will claim that Rolex or the AD can and will inject a nanonite device in their watches that will explode once flipped, rendering the watch useless. There'll be tons of 'my watch, my choice' rants in various forums and TikTok

[subdownunder]

Draconian governments in the soviet era tried without success to quash black market profiteering.

Flipping is nothing more than black marketing (people paying a premium for unobtainable goods.)

So good luck trying to stop it if the demand continues and greater fools are willing to pay far above retail to own a watch.

If governments tried to stamp it out unsuccessfully what chance does Rolex have?

Where money is involved people are more ingenious than any corporation and more fleet footed.

Maybe if we all start counter the social media and marketing hype and start posting all over social media Rolex owners are tossers and incels, and deserve to to considered lwith more contempt than a 1980's Porsche owner demand would fall off a cliff in a flash...

Now that strategy would work....

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by teck21

Mine are straightforward. Make sure everybody pays ‘market’ price via relationship building/bundling (even though Rolex frowns on outright binding), but I understand that’s not a popular view, and it also has its drawbacks.

Not sure I follow: Everyone with sufficient funds has the option to pay "market price" right now, by definition. So how are we ahead with your proposed solution?

[teck21]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

Not sure I follow: Everyone with sufficient funds has the option to pay "market price" right now, by definition. So how are we ahead with your proposed solution?

I meant at ADs. Sell only to people who buy enough ‘unpopular’ items (from an existing relationship or by bundling) to close the gap in price between MSRP and grey.

Remove the economic incentive for flipping.


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[Becweb]

Rolex has no issue, nothing should change. If anything they are striving and don't need additional customers who could very well go explore other brands.

Else, I agree with one of the posters, which is ask buyers to bring the watch back to see it 6 months down the line for instance. If they can't / no time / don't have it anymore, then it's game over for them in obtaining other watches from the shop.

[Master_Grogu]

Simple in theory: make any Rolex available under a month. Daytona? GMT2? Sure dear mr client, just give us the full price and we will have it for you in about 4 weeks.

Then, hyperbolic discounting stops immediately, and thus prices of second hand watches goes back below the MSRP.

[M9APO]

Have the warranty of the purchased watch serial no. registered to the buyer and drop the warranty card system.

If the owner wants to sell in future then an online warranty transfer can be carried out on the Rolex site.

Only a fixed number of transfers in a given period are allowed though, making it difficult for flippers.

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by teck21

It is a problem. Everybody knows that.

It may be a problem if you can't get a watch you want easily at MSRP or below. It isn't a problem if you are selling one.

One is not related to the other. A "flipper" is not depriving me of a watch I can't buy. The world isn't that small and I'm just not that important. Nobody is.

Think positive. Plan positive. Build relationships. Be patient. What other people are doing doesn't matter unless they are swindling you - in which case you have legal remedies.

[Rocket_Man]

Many people have come up with ideas, but this is not an easy problem to fix. It will fix itself when the 'flexing' culture changes, or moves on to some other hotter commodity. (who knows how long that will take).

Rolex could drastically change their distribution channel and take ownership of it. Get rid of all their independent AD's and sell only through Rolex owned and operated Boutiques. They could vett their customers better and control who buys their watches, but I don't think Rolex wants to get into the retail business and own real estate worldwide not to mention managing people.

They could ask that watches be paid in full in advance and deliver the watch months later. That might cut down on flippers with limited cash flow.

[BLNR Nairobi]

Originally Posted by LA_LEC

Ditch the totally unrealistic MSRP. The only reason they are being seen as an "investment" or flipped is that MSRP.

Triple it then if they don't sell the AD can always give a discount to move merchandise.

Rolex would never desire to go back to the days of watches sitting and ADs offering discounts. All they need to do is see other brands’ references sitting, collecting dust, and with discounts so common they are seen as a given. Rolex would never want to be a Breitling or a Rado (and even Omega has been doing it’s best to leave the drain of discounts).

If Rolex was to do that it would be truly stupid on their part.

[BLNR Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Master_Grogu

Simple in theory: make any Rolex available under a month. Daytona? GMT2? Sure dear mr client, just give us the full price and we will have it for you in about 4 weeks.

Then, hyperbolic discounting stops immediately, and thus prices of second hand watches goes back below the MSRP.

If that happened, we would be discussing on TRF in 2024 how Rolex made the biggest strategic misstep ever. How they sacrificed their brand. The only demand for Rolex would be at universities as they studied what would be one of the biggest missteps in marketing/brand history.

[Brew]

Engraved case backs, including after-sales replacements for sold/gifted pieces?


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[BLNR Nairobi]

I believe the issue solves itself when people realize that i) owning a Rolex is not a right and ii) there are many wonderful timepieces from quality and storied brands out there that are easily available and, often, more affordable.

Without those two points happening, there’s really nothing that Rolex can do to fix the situation (and not kill their brand - eg killing their brand by requiring people to report their watches, forcefully engraved case backs, flooding the market with references, becoming a boutique-only approach, raising prices to match demand and then having to offer discounts when the market inevitably softens).

[mailman]

Originally Posted by norcalgt3

Very easy IMO. Ask original buyers to randomly bring in select watches within 1 week's notice to nearest or original ADs for serial number verification. These checks stop after 3 years.

Second hand buyers would think twice for signing up for that hassle to ship back to seller.

That’ll never work. People tire of watches sometimes and sell them. Sometimes they do it to offset the cost of a more expensive one.

[Francist]

Impossible unless Rolex willing to create a global blacklist.
Which is equivalent to shooting themselves on the foot.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

It may be a problem if you can't get a watch you want easily at MSRP or below. It isn't a problem if you are selling one.

One is not related to the other. A "flipper" is not depriving me of a watch I can't buy. The world isn't that small and I'm just not that important. Nobody is.

Think positive. Plan positive. Build relationships. Be patient. What other people are doing doesn't matter unless they are swindling you - in which case you have legal remedies.

I didn’t intend it to mean it was a problem on a personal level for any individual, but rather a problem for the brand and the market in general.

The flippers not only deprive legitimate buyers of watches, and even profit at their expense. This engenders plenty of ill will towards the brand, and towards ADs. Often undeserved, but it happens a lot.

From your perspective, I totally see why it is not a problem. It is just a watch, and it boggles the mind how people can get so upset about not being able to buy one at an AD considering how many other options everyone has.


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by Brew

Engraved case backs, including after-sales replacements for sold/gifted pieces?


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That’s a big ask which would kill a lot if legitimate demand as well.

I don’t want to sell my watches and even I don’t want their case backs engraved with anything.

Even if it’s my own name or any engraving of my choice.

It would reduce demand for sure though. Or perhaps the market will simply adapt to the new normal of engraved casebacks.

No way to know for sure without actually doing it.


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[Brew]

Originally Posted by teck21

That’s a big ask which would kill a lot if legitimate demand as well.

I don’t want to sell my watches and even I don’t want their case backs engraved with anything.

Even if it’s my own name or any engraving of my choice.


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I think only WIS would have a problem with this. I don’t think Rolex’s real market, or even perhaps it’s “intended” market, would balk at a tasteful “customization” performed by Rolex, to commemorate a special occasion, etc.


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[Chester01]

It’s interesting one talks flippers but the real issue are organized flippers also known as gray market dealers. Rolex can regulate this, simply first come first serve and they don’t. The few hundred or thousand gray dealers/flippers have hundreds of new watches refreshed every week. This is widely known and they have a steady supply coming in. It’s not a disputable fact. When have the largest grays ever been out of Daytonas and gmt? Never. Their stock is far to big for one or two AD, they are all in on it.

[joli160]

Why do you think Rolex wants to prevent AD’s selling to greys ? I have never seen an instruction from Rolex HQ.
For decades and long before the current hype it was and is a perfect symbiosis.
Win win for all involved;

* Rolex sells every watch they produce with the greys not only buying the popular models but also the more difficult ones. By doing this the greys have easily become Rolex highest VIP customer.

* Grey sellers are filling a void, not everybody wants to play AD games with kissing up, spending history and bundle deals. Just a straight forward buy without the drama. How nice is that.

[BNZ]

Originally Posted by Tanalasta

Link the warranty to original owner only.

Mandate the owners name be written onto the warranty card at point of sale. Each AD will usually keep a copy for their own records anyway.

Spot audits
Repurchase of grey market watches to track point of sale and original owner


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That's how Richard Mille does it.

[1William]

The first premise of this post is that there is a problem. Only if you can not get the watch you want from an AD at msrp when you want it. This falls into two categories, the first is what we are really talking about is money. The money that it takes to build a relationship with AD to be able to buy a hot item. And the money it takes to buy the watch from a Grey Seller, which is typically significantly more right now than msrp. The other money side is most buyers want the hot Rolex watches at msrp so they can have equity and at some point, should they decide, they can sell/trade for more money or a better/different watch. I have no issue with any of this as it falls in to free commerce and the market drives secondary prices.

The Second point is the entitlement mentality that many show that makes them think they should get a hot Rolex/PP watch just by asking and having the money to pay for it. Stepping to the front of the line with no or limited purchase history. The concept of "Fairness" is subjective and depending on where you are in getting what you want might be a sliding scale.

I do not like they way things are with the supply issues with Rolex/PP/AP. Is there anything I can do about it? Sure, adapt to what is going on around me and make decisions that are consistent with attaining what I want, at what I consider to be fair market prices. While I like complaining about the weather I know there is nothing I can do about it. Same with Rolex supply and demand issues. They will change with time. I hope for the better but am prepared for it to get worse. Just my thoughts.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by teck21

I’m proposing removing the incentive.

Why?

Why does it bother you what someone else does?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by joli160

Why do you think Rolex wants to prevent AD’s selling to greys ? I have never seen an instruction from Rolex HQ.
For decades and long before the current hype it was and is a perfect symbiosis.
Win win for all involved;

* Rolex sells every watch they produce with the greys not only buying the popular models but also the more difficult ones. By doing this the greys have easily become Rolex highest VIP customer.

* Grey sellers are filling a void, not everybody wants to play AD games with kissing up, spending history and bundle deals. Just a straight forward buy without the drama. How nice is that.

Agreed

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by 1William

The first premise of this post is that there is a problem. Only if you can not get the watch you want from an AD at msrp when you want it.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Agreed

X 2 I am sure Rolex management is sitting back there in Switzerland, reading all the letters from endusers complaining they are unable to buy a model at MSRP, and the Grays are ruining the brand blah blah blah, and giggling as they write a hollow apologetic response. This will not change until so many customers are fed up, they turn to another manufacturer (Omega, Breitling, Grand Seiko, take your pick). Once demand goes down, so do the prices and availability goes up. Until that happens, or Rolex increases their production 20 fold, not much will change.

[1665fan]

Rolex is testing the waters…..Tudor, all the stock in the world, Rolex no stock……w no Rolex in stock they sell waaaaaaaay more tudors and reserve the Rolex brand for customers they want to own Rolex……it’s like a huge experiment in luxury goods/game as I see it

[Keepchasing]

Originally Posted by 1William

The first premise of this post is that there is a problem. Only if you can not get the watch you want from an AD at msrp when you want it. This falls into two categories, the first is what we are really talking about is money. The money that it takes to build a relationship with AD to be able to buy a hot item. And the money it takes to buy the watch from a Grey Seller, which is typically significantly more right now than msrp. The other money side is most buyers want the hot Rolex watches at msrp so they can have equity and at some point, should they decide, they can sell/trade for more money or a better/different watch. I have no issue with any of this as it falls in to free commerce and the market drives secondary prices.

The Second point is the entitlement mentality that many show that makes them think they should get a hot Rolex/PP watch just by asking and having the money to pay for it. Stepping to the front of the line with no or limited purchase history. The concept of "Fairness" is subjective and depending on where you are in getting what you want might be a sliding scale.

I do not like they way things are with the supply issues with Rolex/PP/AP. Is there anything I can do about it? Sure, adapt to what is going on around me and make decisions that are consistent with attaining what I want, at what I consider to be fair market prices. While I like complaining about the weather I know there is nothing I can do about it. Same with Rolex supply and demand issues. They will change with time. I hope for the better but am prepared for it to get worse. Just my thoughts.

This is spot on.
I was trying to type out basically the same thing, but you articulated it way better.

[IamJacky]

I think the most realistic way is to have the 5 year warranty bound to the original buyer at the AD. This way the resell value of the watches even at brand-new-in-box condition would drop dramatically, hence discouraging the secondary trading.

Having very limited spend history at any ADs myself, naturally I do not have any access to the hot models besides the secondary market, therefore I would not have wanted Rolex to implement this hypothetical policy, but I'll say this, even if Rolex binds the 5 year warranty to original buyers only, I will still purchase the ones that I currently have if my only chance of obtaining them is through the grey - at reasonable, competitive market prices that is.

[RJM25R]

Originally Posted by teck21

It is a problem. Everybody knows that.

There’s no blame to be assigned for doing it because that’s just rational human behaviour, the chance for a quick buck.

But every watch that gets taken away from an AD purely for the sole purpose of selling again without adding value deprives another genuine customer of a chance of it from an AD, that is also surely not in doubt.

What is it you think Rolex and/or ADs can do, in conjunction or not, to ensure as few watches as possible go to these opportunistic scalpers?

As it stands, Rolex tries to ‘dissuade’ its ADs from funnelling directly to greys (via the threat of dealership revocation), and to individual flippers (via black listing of individuals).

This discussion is not about Rolex increasing supply to resolve the demand issues, or demand supply issues in general, such as whether demand is ‘real or fake’.

The market situation is what it is, littered with opportunities for scalpers to profit.

In this light, what else can, or should Rolex/ ADs do?

Curious as to people’s views.

Mine are straightforward. Make sure everybody pays ‘market’ price via relationship building/bundling (even though Rolex frowns on outright binding), but I understand that’s not a popular view, and it also has its drawbacks.

What solutions would some of you propose?

Edit:
For the purpose of this particular discussion, flipping refers to the buying of a popular reference at an AD with little or no intention of being the end user, but for monetary profit.


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Nothing can be done to stop it. There are humans who rob banks, attack people, steal cars and deal drugs for easy money. These all have the threats of jail time and/or death if you fvck with the wrong person so a threat-free option to make money will always be attractive!

Flipping a Rolex gives some people months of salary tax free…… who’s saying no to that?


Blacklist me? Go ahead! I’m massively $$$$$$$$$*


*not my opinion and actions, merely my opinion of the thoughts of a flipper