Got my booster today

[Letsgodiving]

Originally Posted by daveathall

I don't think it was a denial of treatment, I think it was if there is only one bed available, then the person that had taken the vaccine should get it in preference to the person who wouldn't take it.

There is also a bit of an ethical debate in the medical community over whether non-vaccinated patients should receive lung transplants over others. There have been 238 lung transplants due to Covid in the US since they started tracking them in Aug of 2020 and the recipients are in such poor condition they are jumping to the front of the line.

Glad I don't have to make these decisions.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by pickettt

The day is young

I think I’m Banned

[TheVTCGuy]

I am going to throw in an agreement with Seth here, medical care should be provided to all, but it ANGERS me to see individuals that don’t keep BASIC care of themselves. It just does. I was visiting a friend who is a Doctor in a hospital, a surgeon to be specific. He had performed a tracheotomy on a woman who had developed throat cancer and was smoking five packs a day. When she was recovering, they wheeled her out to sit in the sun. SHE WAS SMOKING THROUGH THE TRACH HOLE!!!!!

Seriously, WTF!? I don’t know what can or should be done, it if you’re not going to do your part in taking decent care of yourself why should the health system waste resources and preclude another deserving patient?

It just pisses me off. OK, just a rant, now over, move along now, nothing to see.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

There is also a bit of an ethical debate in the medical community over whether non-vaccinated patients should receive lung transplants over others. There have been 238 lung transplants due to Covid in the US since they started tracking them in Aug of 2020 and the recipients are in such poor condition they are jumping to the front of the line.

Glad I don't have to make these decisions.

Yes, and me.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

There is also a bit of an ethical debate in the medical community over whether non-vaccinated patients should receive lung transplants over others. There have been 238 lung transplants due to Covid in the US since they started tracking them in Aug of 2020 and the recipients are in such poor condition they are jumping to the front of the line.

Glad I don't have to make these decisions.

Originally Posted by daveathall

Yes, and me.

Easy decision for me. I do the job I took the oath to do.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by superdog

While I do think all people should be provided with medical care, I do have an issue with people that take zero care of themselves and expect medical care.

now, obesity can very well not be avoidable.

however, someone that smokes? should they be provided lungs for a transplant?

this is a whole new topic I suppose...

but I personally dont appreciate those that lament their bad health but depend on the health care system to keep the alive.

I suppose the shot is similar. if you have the ability to reduce your chance of getting sick, but you dont take it...are you at fault?

I personally would hate to be the guy in a bed on a ventillator wishing I took the vaccine. but that is just my take.

and folks, we can all chat without arguing. it is possible.

I'm with you on this take. Medical ethics is a very tricky business with broad grey zones. Let's face it, the majority (or at least a significant minority) of adults needing care in a hospital voluntarily acted in ways detrimental to their health. Smoking, drinking, poorly managed diabetes, don't adhere to medical regimen, don't exercise regularly, engage in risky behaviors, etc.

It's an easy call when it's a kid with leukemia who develops pneumonia versus an elderly patient with heart disease and liver cirrhosis with COVID pneumonia. But it gets a lot hairier when it's the vaxxed guy who snorted too many lines and drove his car off the road and crushed his chest vs the otherwise healthy but unvaxxed COVID patient needing a respirator.

Ultimately the rules of triage need to apply. It's just unfortunate because a good chunk of the death toll during this pandemic has involved people not even infected with COVID at the time of their death.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Easy decision for me. I do the job I took the oath to do.

So, I have to ask. If it came down to it and the unvaccinated were taking spots in the hospital others needed would you kick them out or refuse them care?

[walds11]

Originally Posted by pickettt

The day is young

Yep. IBTL

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by dddrees

So, I have to ask. If it came down to it and the unvaccinated were taking spots in the hospital others needed would you kick them out or refuse them care?

Would I kick a sick person out of a bed that a different sick person needed? Is that the question ?

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Would I kick a sick person out of a bed that a different sick person needed? Is that the question ?

The question more specifically is whether you would kick out or refuse a bed to someone who chose not to take a vaccine which had great potential to prevent their current situation they find themselves in order to give that bed to someone else. I mean after all they did their risk analysis and decided they didn't want help initially from the medical committee so what's the problem?

[superdog]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Would I kick a sick person out of a bed that a different sick person needed? Is that the question ?

I cant answer for you.

I personally would not.

But I might very well resent the person that had a chance to help themselves, but didn't.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by dddrees

The question more specifically is whether you would kick out or refuse a bed to someone who chose not to take a vaccine which had great potential to prevent their current situation they find themselves in order to give that bed to someone else. I mean after all they did their risk analysis and decided they didn't want help initially from the medical committee so what's the problem?

Absolutely not.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Absolutely not.

As I doctor, I would expect that answer from you.

I am glad you are the doctor and not me.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Absolutely not.

Let's just be glad it hasn't got to the point where this has become a problem.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by superdog

As I doctor, I would expect that answer from you.

I am glad you are the doctor and not me.

Now, I might have an opinion about it…but my job is not to opine, but rather to treat the ill and injured. If you were in an automobile accident while exceeding the speed limit, I may think you a jerk, but I still treat you as someone who needs care…no more or less than the guy who was not even at fault for his car accident.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Now, I might have an opinion about it…but my job is not to opine, but rather to treat the ill and injured. If you were in an automobile accident while exceeding the speed limit, I may think you a jerk, but I still treat you as someone who needs care…no more or less than the guy who was not even at fault for his car accident.

Good point, however car accidents or other incidents typically don't overload the system to anywhere near what Covid can. The reason for refusal coming up in the first place is because Covid can make it so overwhelming that other care can become impossible if the system becomes overwhelmed.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by walds11

Yep. IBTL

only a matter of time before crazy rocks up.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Now, I might have an opinion about it…but my job is not to opine, but rather to treat the ill and injured. If you were in an automobile accident while exceeding the speed limit, I may think you a jerk, but I still treat you as someone who needs care…no more or less than the guy who was not even at fault for his car accident.

that is a super point. especially for me. and I am the jerk..

and I try hard to not be a hypocrite. so this is helpful for me to pontificate further.

Dan, also brings up a good point though. Car accidents don't change the entire system as we have seen today.

so there is much gray to think about, and no easy answers. except that when you take an oath, you do you best to fulfill it.

but again, great point. lots of food for thought.

[Gab27]

IMHO, it is worth noting that just looking at VAERS data at face value is like looking at raw survey data, where you will have male respondents telling you they are pregnant, females saying they have testicular cancer, and individuals saying their ethnicity is a cucumber, or that they got lung cancer due to their consumption of coconut water on Thursday afternoons. It is RAW data. It does not establish causation. It may be incomplete. It may be outright falsified. That isn't to say that it is not useful, but there are some pretty major caveats to consider when discussing VAERS, which special interest groups that are opposed to vaccinations often gloss over.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Gab27

IMHO, it is worth noting that just looking at VAERS data at face value is like looking at raw survey data, where you will have male respondents telling you they are pregnant, females saying they have testicular cancer, and individuals saying their ethnicity is a cucumber, or that they got lung cancer due to their consumption of coconut water on Thursday afternoons. It is RAW data. It does not establish causation. It may be incomplete. It may be outright falsified. That isn't to say that it is not useful, but there are some pretty major caveats to consider when discussing VAERS, which special interest groups that are opposed to vaccinations often gloss over.

Can you cut and paste here some of those quackery stories from VAERS.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Can you cut and paste here some of those quackery stories from VAERS.

What do you mean by quackery? Are you referring to improbable, impossible, or secondhand (proxy) reporting?

For example, this is an instance where you might wonder if the vaccine was in fact the culprit.

"Right after I took the vaccine. I started having night terrors where I would wake dripping in sweat. The dreams consisted of being chased by like lizard-type creatures. When caught in the dream a microchip was planted under the skin. I also what felt like high fever and chills. thought I was going to die. I think I got covid from the vaccine. I refuse to take the second shot and this drug was rushed."


This is another where you have to wonder if the vaccine is directly associated with this:

"Anal leakage - started on 4/17, still have as of 5/10 Lack of smell - started around 4/20, still have as of 5/10 Nausea when standing up- started around 4/17, ended around 5/5 Random feeling to puke (2-3 times daily)- started 4/20, still have as of 5/10"


One more, again seeming a bit questionable in terms of an outcome being connected to the vaccine:

"First injection 3-20-21. Left arm sore and trouble raising it for at least one week. On 3-30-21, I went to hospital for numb left arm and being nauseous. No heart issues, but possible pinched nerve. Still problems with left arm being numb at times. 2nd injection - Slept for most of 36 hours after injection on 4-26-2021. On 5-14-21, I discovered a magnet will stay on my arm at the injection site. This was done after talking with co-workers who saw this done on the internet. During this time, several people also discovered they had a magnetic site. Is this normal? And why would my arm be magnetized? Conspiracy theories are being discussed now."


This one seems a bit questionable, too:

"I saw on U tube that people who received the vaccine were finding magnets stuck to their insertion site. Not believing it, I put a magnet on my arm and it stuck and only stuck to where the vaccine was given. My boyfriend who has not received the vaccine heard the vaccines shed so we tested to see if the magnet would stick to him. The magnet stuck to both arms, his chest, and his penis which are all areas where I frequently come in contact ."

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Gab27

What do you mean by quackery? Are you referring to improbable, impossible, or secondhand (proxy) reporting?

For example, this is an instance where you might wonder if the vaccine was in fact the culprit.

"Right after I took the vaccine. I started having night terrors where I would wake dripping in sweat. The dreams consisted of being chased by like lizard-type creatures. When caught in the dream a microchip was planted under the skin. I also what felt like high fever and chills. thought I was going to die. I think I got covid from the vaccine. I refuse to take the second shot and this drug was rushed."


This is another where you have to wonder if the vaccine is directly associated with this:

"Anal leakage - started on 4/17, still have as of 5/10 Lack of smell - started around 4/20, still have as of 5/10 Nausea when standing up- started around 4/17, ended around 5/5 Random feeling to puke (2-3 times daily)- started 4/20, still have as of 5/10"


One more, again seeming a bit questionable in terms of an outcome being connected to the vaccine:

"First injection 3-20-21. Left arm sore and trouble raising it for at least one week. On 3-30-21, I went to hospital for numb left arm and being nauseous. No heart issues, but possible pinched nerve. Still problems with left arm being numb at times. 2nd injection - Slept for most of 36 hours after injection on 4-26-2021. On 5-14-21, I discovered a magnet will stay on my arm at the injection site. This was done after talking with co-workers who saw this done on the internet. During this time, several people also discovered they had a magnetic site. Is this normal? And why would my arm be magnetized? Conspiracy theories are being discussed now."


This one seems a bit questionable, too:

"I saw on U tube that people who received the vaccine were finding magnets stuck to their insertion site. Not believing it, I put a magnet on my arm and it stuck and only stuck to where the vaccine was given. My boyfriend who has not received the vaccine heard the vaccines shed so we tested to see if the magnet would stick to him. The magnet stuck to both arms, his chest, and his penis which are all areas where I frequently come in contact ."

Would you say these are representative of the majority of reporting?

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Would you say these are representative of the majority of reporting?

Are most that blatantly questionable? No. Those are blatantly questionable and seemed most appropriate with respect to the term you used, "quackery" asking for a quick cut and paste. Systematic intentional misreporting would almost certainly attempt to NOT be so blatant, making it harder to flag/detect-levels unknown. Proxy reporting is also a concern given the limitations of secondhand accounts and how critical details can be misconstrued or outright omitted. However, the issue of causation is probably the greatest issue of all.

All that said, I am totally in support of people choosing whether or not they want a vaccine. But if we are going to discuss VAERS, I think it is important to recognize that we are talking about relatively raw data and many anti-vaccine groups have misused it. That's my opinion and you can take that for what you want.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Are most that blatantly questionable? No. Those are blatantly questionable and seemed most appropriate with respect to the term you used, "quackery" asking for a quick cut and paste. Systematic intentional misreporting would almost certainly attempt to NOT be so blatant, making it harder to flag/detect-levels unknown. Proxy reporting is also a concern given the limitations of secondhand accounts and how critical details can be misconstrued or outright omitted. However, the issue of causation is probably the greatest issue of all.

All that said, I am totally in support of people choosing whether or not they want a vaccine. But if we are going to discuss VAERS, I think it is important to recognize that we are talking about relatively raw data and many anti-vaccine groups have misused it. That's my opinion and you can take that for what you want.

I have to agree that almost all data is interpreted as it serves the interpreter.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I have to agree that almost all data is interpreted as it serves the interpreter.

Well, if someone reports a death, that's a 1/0 situation in theory. My questions are then if the death actually happened to the individual reported on, and if the death is attributable to the event in which it has been linked. VAERS is not great at answering either of those questions IMO.

My assumption is we will eventually see a study like this, that attempts to validate some of the data, if such a study isn't already ongoing:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6771280/

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Well, if someone reports a death, that's a 1/0 situation in theory. My questions are then if the death actually happened to the individual reported on, and if the death is attributable to the event in which it has been linked. VAERS is not great at answering either of those questions IMO.

My assumption is we will eventually see a study like this, that attempts to validate some of the data, if such a study isn't already ongoing:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6771280/

Would you agree that we'd need a study to look into all of the deaths that have been attributed to Covid as well?

[zengineer]

Originally Posted by Schmed

What if there are long-term health issues with the vaccine? Say a heart issue, for example? Would non-vaxxed heart patients get priority?

Your post deserved a reply by those taking on this debate.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Would you agree that we'd need a study to look into all of the deaths that have been attributed to Covid as well?

Absolutely. While we could argue that the reporting for that is a bit more controlled than VAERS, there are plenty of variables involved here, too, and this should still continue to be studied for some time to come (and revised accordingly, if necessary).

[Neom]

Until proven otherwise, the vaccine is to protect yourself, not to prevent the spread really. People who want to take the risk of catching it and suffering - their call and decision. I agree with freedom of choice.
I was indirectly forced to do both shots if i was to remain in the country and workplace i currently am in. I could have left the country, but decided it was not worth it to change my life path because of this injection, which goods or bads can't be 100% certain.

[superdog]

I wouldn’t want to be this guy…

I’d so much prefer to err on the side of caution. I just see way too many stories like this.

RIP sir.