32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[Youngling]

I just woke up and I tried resting my new Sub date with face up overnight. It actually gained one second!

These first days it has been barely one second slow per day, I wonder if it will keep perfect time now if I wear it in the day and rest it face up overnight :)
Happy seeing my 3235 gaining time in some way.

I think you all also have noticed but if 32xx movements doesn’t run spot on, everyone seems to report that they’re slow (as mine). Do you think it is beacuse of the problem with the seconds wheel pivot which can cause major error later down the road or do you think it is in the nature of 32xx movements to run a little slow rather than fast?

[saxo3]

John, the timekeeping of any mechanical movement depends on many parameters, including its regulation, wearing pattern, rest position overnight, temperature …

If you want to track timekeeping of your 32xx then you could use a smartphone app (e.g. Watch Tracker). Often one can compensate accuracy loss/gain by changing rest position overnight.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by saxo3

John, the timekeeping of any mechanical movement depends on many parameters, including its regulation, wearing pattern, rest position overnight, temperature …

If you want to track timekeeping of your 32xx then you could use a smartphone app (e.g. Watch Tracker). Often one can compensate accuracy loss/gain by changing rest position overnight.

Often? Are you reading any of the other posts E?

Can you measure Paul’s beat error in secs/day?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Andad

Often? Are you reading any of the other posts E?

Can you measure Paul’s beat error in secs/day?

Yes often! I own watches that have positive rates in all positions. For these I cannot compensate loss/gain overnight and they continue to gain day after day. Therefore, I added "often".

My 126600 is an example for a 3235 watch which I can keep spot on:



Here is a watch for which rest positioning does NOT work to keep it close to zero (therefore I wrote "often"), my 16600 SD with 3135 caliber:



The beat error in "sec/day" (a joke!) instead of "ms" you did not understand.

Btw, how is your 32xx performing? It would be nice if you could update your early 2021 timegrapher data with some new results.

[Andad]

Can you measure Paul’s beat error in secs/day?

I was also joking.

Paul’s beat error is immeasurable.

As for positional correction/compensation.

I can always find a resting position that will improve accuracy.
I may not be able to bring it back to your atomic clock requirement but I can correct it.

And it is not possible to find a position that will correct the time exactly because it will always be moving from + to - or vice versa when in the correcting position?

But you know this.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Andad

Paul’s beat error is immeasurable.

Originally Posted by Andad

I can always find a resting position that will improve accuracy.

100 % agreement

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Youngling

I just woke up and I tried resting my new Sub date with face up overnight. It actually gained one second!

These first days it has been barely one second slow per day, I wonder if it will keep perfect time now if I wear it in the day and rest it face up overnight :)
Happy seeing my 3235 gaining time in some way.

I think you all also have noticed but if 32xx movements doesn’t run spot on, everyone seems to report that they’re slow (as mine). Do you think it is beacuse of the problem with the seconds wheel pivot which can cause major error later down the road or do you think it is in the nature of 32xx movements to run a little slow rather than fast?

nah, most of my 32xx's ran fast. Currently my DJ that went to RSC twice is doing about 3.5s per day. My OP36 is +4 from visiting RSC. YM40, Sub, Explorer 1 were all around 2s per day when new.

[Smobews]

I too can find a combination of resting positions to keep perfect time on three different 32xx movements.

Sept 2019 SD43
June 2021 EX2
April 2022 Sub no date

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Andad

Can you measure Paul’s beat error in secs/day?

Paul’s beat error is immeasurable.

.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Smobews

I too can find a combination of resting positions to keep perfect time on three different 32xx movements.

Sept 2019 SD43
June 2021 EX2
April 2022 Sub no date

Thanks. You are still using a timegrapher?
https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...19&postcount=4

It would be interesting to measure your three 32xx watches and share the data here, including the X and D values.

[Smobews]

I put two of the three on a timegrapher. The third is in the safe and I'll post it's results at a later date when I rotate it into use. I wear two of them at a time and alternate every other day.

Your reference saxo3 to my post from 2020 was my friends EXP II with a 31xx movement.

Column 1 is spd
Column 2 is amplitude
Column 3 is beat error
Up and Down refers to crown position

[saxo3]

Thanks.

Submariner NoDate (2022) = Ref. 124060 with 3230.
Explorer II (2021) = Ref. 226570 with 3285.

Interesting that the vertical amplitudes of the Explorer II are significantly lower than the Submariner numbers. DU-DD amplitude asymmetry for the Explorer II?

I assume all data were taken after full winding?
Both watches had the same temperature?

The 12U position is normally not analysed.

X rates are excellent for both watches.

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Thanks.

Submariner NoDate (2022) = Ref. 124060 with 3230.
Explorer II (2021) = Ref. 226570 with 3285.

Interesting that the vertical amplitudes of the Explorer II are significantly lower than the Submariner numbers. DU-DD amplitude asymmetry for the Explorer II?

I assume all data were taken after full winding?
Both watches had the same temperature?

The 12U position is normally not analysed.

X rates are excellent for both watches.

Full wind
Same temp
I don’t know if 20 or so degrees of amplitude difference constitutes asymmetry.

I take the 12 up reading because I figure my watch is in that position as much as in the dial down position during the natural tourbillion wrist time. I think it gives me a more accurate average.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Smobews

I don’t know if 20 or so degrees of amplitude difference constitutes asymmetry.

I have been told by a watchmaker that the origin might be an "asymmetric" lubrication comparing DU with DD. I don't know if that is a correct explanation.

12U is a very uncommon watch/wrist position for me.

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I have been told by a watchmaker that the origin might be an "asymmetric" lubrication comparing DU with DD. I don't know if that is a correct explanation.

The relatively low amplitude in the vertical on a full wind is a little concerning but the watch keeps almost perfect time when it rests for 32 hours crown up. It runs about -0.2 spd during the week. I rest it dial up if it is Saturday or Sunday. That speeds it up and wipes out the slight loss during the week and brings it back to atomic clock time.

Fun hobby ;)

The 12 up and dial down is uncommon positions for my daily wear, but through hand motion throughout the day, I figure the watch experiences both about the same.


I rest the sub dial up at night and it runs about 0.5 spd. I slow it down by resting crown up if it is a Saturday or a Sunday.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Smobews

The relatively low amplitude in the vertical on a full wind is a little concerning but the watch keeps almost perfect time when it rests for 32 hours crown up. It runs about -0.2 spd during the week. I rest it dial up when if it is Saturday or Sunday. That speeds it up and wipes out the slight loss during the week and brings it back to atomic clock time.

Fun hobby ;)

I agree with you on all points.
Would be interesting to see how much the amplitudes have dropped after 24 hours, with watch all time at rest. Below 200 degrees or not?

I mean a comparison like this:

[Smobews]

[QUOTE=saxo3;12290974]I agree with you on all points.
Would be interesting to see how much the amplitudes have dropped after 24 hours, with watch all time at rest. Below 200 degrees or not?

EXP II is on wrist today. I will measure it tomorrow night after 24 hours of rest and see. If it is under 200, I do not plan on doing anything about it. It runs like a Swiss watch. ;-0

[Smobews]

Here are results of comparison of EXP II after 24 hours from full wind

[saxo3]

I would calculate the X values without the 12U data since the 32xx Rolex calibers are regulated in 5 and not in 6 positions, which results in:

X (t = 0) = 1.3 s/d
X (t = 24 h) = -0.4 s/d
D ( t =0) = D (t = 24 h) = 6.3 s/d

What is your interpretation of the amplitude data?

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I would calculate the X values without the 12U data since the 32xx Rolex calibers are regulated in 5 and not in 6 positions, which results in:

X (t = 0) = 1.3 s/d
X (t = 24 h) = -0.4 s/d
D ( t =0) = D (t = 24 h) = 6.3 s/d

What is your interpretation of the amplitude data?

The watch keeps fabulous time. It’s 13 months old and I will recheck in 6 months. If amplitude drops below 200, but still keeps great time there is not much to do. If it falls out +/- 2 spd with low amplitude, I will take it to my AD for service. They have an RSC level service.

[saxo3]

I agree, don't touch this watch, it runs perfectly. For repair work under guarantee I would always use RSC only.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Smobews

Here are results of comparison of EXP II after 24 hours from full wind

Thank you for sharing, my DD too started off it's life with low amplitude similar to what you're showing.

I thought it would go bad reasonably quickly. It stayed exactly the same for a good 7 months. Very recently it started to struggle to hold 200 on crown down after 24 hours and on the wrist it's losing 4s per day when it started it's life at -2s per day.

From what I've seen in 8 32xx movements at a guess I think your explorer's going to be one that suffers from this but it's survived 1 year like this so who knows. You don't need to constantly measure though, when it hits it's pretty obvious...

[Smobews]

Here is the full set of results of three 32xx series movements:

September 2019 126600 3235
June 2021 226570 3285
April 2022 124060 3230

spd, amplitude, beat error

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Smobews

Here is the full set of results of three 32xx series movements:

September 2019 126600 3235
June 2021 226570 3285
April 2022 124060 3230

spd, amplitude, beat error

Great stuff. Congrats on getting a good 32xx from 2019!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Great stuff. Congrats on getting a good 32xx from 2019!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Graham

[Barada7]

So is 3 years the max period on the 32xx without having an issue?

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Barada7

So is 3 years the max period on the 32xx without having an issue?

no one can say for sure, but for me, when I have had issues it's been within the year. I'm sure how much you wear it also makes a difference.

3 years without the issue is great.

[saxo3]

As we know, it can take some time until the 32xx movement issue becomes visible, i.e. until timekeeping becomes worse and worse like e.g. -1, -3, -5, -7, -9 …. seconds per day (s/d).

I have found for a 3235 caliber that the issue decleared itself earlier. Timegrapher data, taken over a few years, show a significant decrease of amplitude in all vertical positions (3U, 6U, 9U). The horizontal positions (DU, DD) do not show this effect so pronounced.

Even if the 5-position average rate value, X, is still in the range of -2/+2 s/d, the "start" of the 32xx problem can be visible by the decrease (over time) of the vertical 32xx amplitude values.

This seems to be a kind of precursor for the 32xx problem. One can only detect it with a series of timegrapher measurements, one taken every few months only.

Here an example of my Sea-Dweller that shows this behaviour:

126600 (3235) 2017, repaired in 09/2019, low amplitude (in vertical positions) problem back since about 12/2021.

Latest results from 07/2022. Note that the horizontal amplitude values are still quite high for a 32xx caliber:



Yes, the problem appeared again on the same watch!

[sheldonsmith]

Great observation. My watch required to laps to the RSC for the issue to be rectified.

~ Sheldon

[Youngling]

Hello again everyone,

A little update on my new sub (with the 3235). This first week of ownership I’ve been tracking it closely with the WatchTracker app and I’m pretty confused with the results. When I’m wearing it, it is consistently going -3 spd so I decided to experiment with how it performs in different positions. They’ve been in each position a minimum of 12 hours on which the eqv spd is based on:

DU: +1.8
DD: +4.8
9U: +1.9
3U: -0.5
6U: +0.5

These results are of course not exact but I think it gives a rough picture of its performance in the different positions.
I didn’t do any major, if any, manual winding. I’ve been wearing it for at least 12 hours everyday.

Now, how come the rate when I’m wearing it (-3 spd) is so completely different from the rates in the different positions? How can it even be slowing down when it is fast in nearly all positions?