Electric Car question....

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by michaelodonnell123

My electric utility company PSE&G keeps sending out notices to conserve electricity, yet our government is telling us to use electricity.

I think we are at the tipping point here to benefit from point source renewable generation. The utilities will benefit from off loading generation to residential and business customers in many areas (obviously not highly dense downtowns) but this will also bring increased costs in transmission line upgrades. However, anyone in California and Texas will tell you this is greatly needed regardless of the generation source. Fires and grid collapse are here now.

The benefit of point source generation is that it requires much shorter transmission distance and results in much less wasted in transmission. Typical power plant generated energy loses up to 35% over long distance transmission.

So, for those of us who can install solar, an electric car may be ideal for the vast majority of our driving at the present time. Our family is the exact perfect target for solar and ev use and we are seriously considering it now. My wife’s commute is 25 miles RT. We drive 180 miles RT to our mountain home. This means that 95% of our driving will be well within home charging and/or generation capabilities.

We have been seriously debating the cost/benefit of a plug in hybrid versus pure ev. Honestly, while the initial cost of the ev is still off putting, the non existent ICE maintenance issues with ev is starting to look more and more attractive.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

I think we are at the tipping point here to benefit from point source renewable generation. The utilities will benefit from off loading generation to residential and business customers in many areas (obviously not highly dense downtowns) but this will also bring increased costs in transmission line upgrades. However, anyone in California and Texas will tell you this is greatly needed regardless of the generation source. Fires and grid collapse are here now.

The benefit of point source generation is that it requires much shorter transmission distance and results in much less wasted in transmission. Typical power plant generated energy loses up to 35% over long distance transmission.

So, for those of us who can install solar, an electric car may be ideal for the vast majority of our driving at the present time. Our family is the exact perfect target for solar and ev use and we are seriously considering it now. My wife’s commute is 25 miles RT. We drive 180 miles RT to our mountain home. This means that 95% of our driving will be well within home charging and/or generation capabilities.

We have been seriously debating the cost/benefit of a plug in hybrid versus pure ev. Honestly, while the initial cost of the ev is still off putting, the non existent ICE maintenance issues with ev is starting to look more and more attractive.

Excellent post.

I have a 2008 Prius with 208,000 miles on it. It's needed less than $1000 of maintenance other than tires, and has just about paid for itself in fuel savings. I have looked into full EV's a number of times and the math to replace the Prius has never been favorable.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by binArt

Excellent post.

I have a 2008 Prius with 208,000 miles on it. It's needed less than $1000 of maintenance other than tires, and has just about paid for itself in fuel savings. I have looked into full EV's a number of times and the math to replace the Prius has never been favorable.

So, would you even consider an EV or just go with another hybrid if you HAD to buy something this year?

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by binArt

Excellent post.

I have a 2008 Prius with 208,000 miles on it. It's needed less than $1000 of maintenance other than tires, and has just about paid for itself in fuel savings. I have looked into full EV's a number of times and the math to replace the Prius has never been favorable.

And you can rebuild the battery cells on the cheap or swap with rebuilds or run it 100% on gas.

Full EVs can’t do that and you need to drop the entire bottom of the car to access and there’s no independent providers.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

So, would you even consider an EV or just go with another hybrid if you HAD to buy something this year?

I would buy another hybrid. Much of my driving is in charging voids. It would be too inconvenient and time consuming to reroute for a charge. And, the cost of an EV with similar comforts and features is at least double that of a reliable hybrid. I would rather spend the cost difference on travel and watches to be be honest

[ReMember]

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[Laszlo]

Originally Posted by binArt

You skipped a step. Build more power plants and upgrade the grid.

The US consumed over 134 billion gallons of gasoline and over 46 billion gallons of diesel fuel last year. The energy of those fossil fuels must be replaced by electrical power in addition to what is produced today - trillions of kW worth of fossil energy in use today versus billions of kW of electrical generation capacity today.

It takes some time to upgrade the power supply to meet that kind of new demand. I doubt I will see it in my lifetime.

Spot on.

Jevons paradox.

“What makes Jevons’ Paradox so deadly in the present situation is that adding new sources of supply to the energy mix has the same effect as making demand more efficient. That’s why it’s inaccurate to claim, as so many badly written histories do, that oil replaced coal. More coal gets burnt each year now than was burnt each year at the peak of the coal era; petroleum, by taking some of the demand that would otherwise drive up the price of coal, kept coal cheap and made it economical to use coal even more freely than before.“

John Michael Greer

[904VT]

Lol. I’m sure 99.9% of Tesla owners brought their Tesla to demonstrate to their neighbors how much they contribute to reducing pollution, not take cross country trips. Cross country trips were in the days of ol’ reliables. Neither EVs nor ICE are that today. They’re all full of electronics waiting to fail during a cross country trip.

[R.bartlett]

Seems the vast majority of fossil fuel users simply have no idea of how advanced battery tech is and how far it's likely to go.

Already a EV can out perform any ICE vehicle and they are only really just getting getting going. A 1000k mile per charge is getting closer daily. battery life is expected to outlive the vehicle they are propelling. You don't need to swap out because they have died, charge times continue to tumble. Solar prices are falling daily. No other form of propulsion can you refuel at home 'free' than batteries.

There is a new Tesla coming out which again has moved the game on. EV manufacturers are leapfrogging each other with increased power density less weight further range cheaper technology. The Chinese are a major player already and it's expected the majority of legacy manufacturers are unlikely to compete over the next decade

Within 10 years EV's will have advanced by a unknown factor it's computer age tech and Browns law applies

I myself have a Lexus CT200h for over 3 years. Atthe time, I thought a hybrid was the best of both worlds.. Turns out they are the worst of both, neither a good EV or even ICE solution..

Best to either go full EV now or stick with ICE till the thing dies then go EV .

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by R.bartlett

Seems the vast majority of fossil fuel users simply have no idea of how advanced battery tech is and how far it's likely to go.

Already a EV can out perform any ICE vehicle and they are only really just getting getting going. A 1000k mile per charge is getting closer daily. battery life is expected to outlive the vehicle they are propelling. You don't need to swap out because they have died, charge times continue to tumble. Solar prices are falling daily. No other form of propulsion can you refuel at home 'free' than batteries.

There is a new Tesla coming out which again has moved the game on. EV manufacturers are leapfrogging each other with increased power density less weight further range cheaper technology. The Chinese are a major player already and it's expected the majority of legacy manufacturers are unlikely to compete over the next decade

Within 10 years EV's will have advanced by a unknown factor it's computer age tech and Browns law applies

I myself have a Lexus CT200h for over 3 years. Atthe time, I thought a hybrid was the best of both worlds.. Turns out they are the worst of both, neither a good EV or even ICE solution..

Best to either go full EV now or stick with ICE till the thing dies then go EV .

Exactly, all the naysayers say it’s impossible with today’s technology, I can’t argue, it probably, but the advancements that are being made WILL solve these issues. I am not smart enough to predict how or when, but some day we will look back at current EVs/energy/hydrogen and wonder how the hell did we make it work.

[mathewdale]

Originally Posted by ReMember

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[Andad]

Originally Posted by Laszlo

Spot on.

Jevons paradox.

“What makes Jevons’ Paradox so deadly in the present situation is that adding new sources of supply to the energy mix has the same effect as making demand more efficient. That’s why it’s inaccurate to claim, as so many badly written histories do, that oil replaced coal. More coal gets burnt each year now than was burnt each year at the peak of the coal era; petroleum, by taking some of the demand that would otherwise drive up the price of coal, kept coal cheap and made it economical to use coal even more freely than before.“

John Michael Greer

If more coal gets burnt each year now than was burnt each year at the peak of the coal era wouldn’t that make now the new peak of the coal era?

[SpillyJ]

Being a Tesla driver for 5 years..... I do have my opinions... First off Nothing compares to Tesla as of yet. Some very nice EV's being produced but consider the supercharging stations and the over the air updates, absolutely nothing compares to Tesla in any model.

The newer Tesla's have longer range and that is the one thing all gas car owners fear. But with a home charger you can reload overnight to 90% and I can say most people would never need more than that on any day.

As far as supercharging... They are anywhere you want to go... If you want to do a trip to uncharted areas, you may have more of an issue....but Im not driving through the north part of Saskewan anytime soon...

Hybrids...... One word answer. NO.... cost way too much and you still have to maintain the gas engine as you do now. Tesla cost of servicing during warranty should be $0. no oil changes, won't need brakes and no mufflers... cost of ownership to run Teslas are very minimal. Charging at superchargers are about 4 times the cost as charging at home in the off hours..

it is a small adjustment to make going to an EV but worth every bit of it. I am on my 4th Tesla in the family now currently with a model x and a model Y. both fabulous cars and would not drive anything else right now... Nothing compares to either cars.

[Chester01]

So an hour and a half, every couple hundred miles and you have added like 3 days to your trip. That assuming one can get a good latch with the plug and don’t need tech support. No thanks, not yet.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

I think we are at the tipping point here to benefit from point source renewable generation. The utilities will benefit from off loading generation to residential and business customers in many areas (obviously not highly dense downtowns) but this will also bring increased costs in transmission line upgrades. However, anyone in California and Texas will tell you this is greatly needed regardless of the generation source. Fires and grid collapse are here now.

The benefit of point source generation is that it requires much shorter transmission distance and results in much less wasted in transmission. Typical power plant generated energy loses up to 35% over long distance transmission.

So, for those of us who can install solar, an electric car may be ideal for the vast majority of our driving at the present time. Our family is the exact perfect target for solar and ev use and we are seriously considering it now. My wife’s commute is 25 miles RT. We drive 180 miles RT to our mountain home. This means that 95% of our driving will be well within home charging and/or generation capabilities.

We have been seriously debating the cost/benefit of a plug in hybrid versus pure ev. Honestly, while the initial cost of the ev is still off putting, the non existent ICE maintenance issues with ev is starting to look more and more attractive.

Great post with many good points to consider

My wife and I are sitting on this tipping point. Living in the city we hardly need to drive and sold 2 of our 3 vehicles after moving from Michigan. The previous owner had a Tesla and there is a charger in the garage. Our 2015 Acura MDX is paid off and running well. The question is when do we sell it and what do we purchase next?

I'd prefer to purchase an EV and install solar. My wife still prefers ICE vehicles for those rare times we drive more than 20 miles in a day, but she wants solar with battery backup just so we aren't as beholden to the electric company. I do the driving and fill the tank for the most part so I think I'll get the last say. I've been in a few Teslas and while the performance is amazing, the fit and finish is subpar for the asking price and it feels too "computer and battery on wheels" for me with that big screen running everything. For now I find the Audi line of EV's most to my taste. That said, I'm waiting for the tech to mature such that the vehicle itself can act as a battery backup for the home during outages, rather than needing separate power banks. This will be possible with the new Ford F150 Lightning, hopefully for other vehicles as the tech improves.

In summary.... I want to get a car that is also a battery backup for my house that requires much less maintenance and zero trips to a gas station. If the numbers make sense I'm all in.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

Great post with many good points to consider

My wife and I are sitting on this tipping point. Living in the city we hardly need to drive and sold 2 of our 3 vehicles after moving from Michigan. The previous owner had a Tesla and there is a charger in the garage. Our 2015 Acura MDX is paid off and running well. The question is when do we sell it and what do we purchase next?

I'd prefer to purchase an EV and install solar. My wife still prefers ICE vehicles for those rare times we drive more than 20 miles in a day, but she wants solar with battery backup just so we aren't as beholden to the electric company. I do the driving and fill the tank for the most part so I think I'll get the last say. I've been in a few Teslas and while the performance is amazing, the fit and finish is subpar for the asking price and it feels too "computer and battery on wheels" for me with that big screen running everything. For now I find the Audi line of EV's most to my taste. That said, I'm waiting for the tech to mature such that the vehicle itself can act as a battery backup for the home during outages, rather than needing separate power banks. This will be possible with the new Ford F150 Lightning, hopefully for other vehicles as the tech improves.

In summary.... I want to get a car that is also a battery backup for my house that requires much less maintenance and zero trips to a gas station. If the numbers make sense I'm all in.

We have had two solar sales reps advise us NOT to get battery backups at this point as the price is still very high. They advised simply getting an ev like you mentioned and let its battery power the house during short outages.

We tend to lose power during winter storms for up to a day at a time once every year or so due to above ground power lines and 70 year old trees. I wired an essentials panel during a remodel to allow us to maintain heat, tv, internet and kitchen functions when I eventually do get battery backup.

Either the Tesla or F150 is a perfect option. I even looked at the F150 lightning and found that the current wait time is over three years but you could make an offer of at least $50k over kist on their demo when they can release these for sale in November.

We are seriously considering ordering the BMW IX5.

[Blansky]

We're contemplating an EV as well. The problem is that it would be our "travel" car since my Jeep is more of a day trip vehicle.

Our Lincoln MKX got sproinged by some idiot in a parking lot and trashed the back quarter panel and more, and we've been waiting for parts for 3 months to get it fixed.

So we've thinking perhaps an EV but wasn't sure on the viability of it for a long trip.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Tools

I thought that flying cars were the future?

Well there's this one....https://newatlas.com/aircraft/samson...-faa-approval/

What could go wrong?????

[binArt]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Well there's this one....https://newatlas.com/aircraft/samson...-faa-approval/

What could go wrong?????

Fancy sliding that into a stall at the local pub.

[TheVTCGuy]

I hear all the time when the battery fails on an EV it’s such a high replacement cost, and ICE’s have zero failure, zero maintenance costs and cheap replacement costs with a major failure right? Yeah.. I had a 92 Toyota, bought brand new and I am OCD about preventative maintenance. At 132,000 miles the head gasket blew, $4,000 for a new head. Oh, and for ICE there are oil changes, transmission fluid changes, brakes etc. Add all those ICE maintenance costs up as compared to an EV, and the possibility that even an ICE can have a major and expensive failure and I submit the difference is not that much. Oh, and the EV I was using last week was getting over 100 MPGE. Let’s see, compare that to 30MPG on an ICE at over $6.00 per gallon here in California.

No, EVs have not solved all the problems, and maybe still are not at the level ICE engines for cost and reliability and (especially) convenience, but they will be someday; IMHO sooner then most people think. We have had well over 100 years to solve ICE challenges, and realistically about 10 for EVs, it will even out and then surpass.

[Schmed]

Originally Posted by Blansky

We're contemplating an EV as well. The problem is that it would be our "travel" car since my Jeep is more of a day trip vehicle.

Our Lincoln MKX got sproinged by some idiot in a parking lot and trashed the back quarter panel and more, and we've been waiting for parts for 3 months to get it fixed.

So we've thinking perhaps an EV but wasn't sure on the viability of it for a long trip.

Tesla's website has a route planner to see where you'll need to charge for road trips.

When I messed around on it, I came to the conclusion that a Tesla is fine for 200 mile +/- road trips, but for 500, 700, 1000 mile trips, it really adds a LOT of time to that drive.

We will probably get a Model Y here soon, but keep an ICE in the household for those types of trips.

https://www.tesla.com/trips

[77T]

Better solution…






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[NachoNeal]

Tesla for local driving and commuting to and from work.
And we take a combustion vehicle for our longer road trips.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by 77T

Better solution…






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I would do this just for the laughs.

[East Bay Rider]

Wealthy city and suburban people problems.
On your way to the summer cottage or ski chalet try to notice the run down homes with old, used up minivans in the dirt driveways and the apartment houses with no parking so the residents park in the street. That's where the people who buy the cars that you traded in ten years and two new owners ago live. Those are the vehicles owned and barely maintained by the middle aged hourly workers and clock punchers at the factories and fast food restaurants. Even if you could make EVs free it's probable that the wiring in some of those old houses couldn't handle the chargers or the inner city charging facilities become unavailable or vandalized and inoperable. There are areas in your local county that don't even have trash pickup but some committee in a government building says that no one in that area can purchase a new ICE truck to tow their bass boat.
I really think it's all a lofty idea being enforced too quickly and without thought to the people who don't live in upscale suburban neighborhoods. The US and its people are too diverse for such a broad declaration forcefully applied within such a short timeline and I think many people are upset about it.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Wealthy city and suburban people problems.
On your way to the summer cottage or ski chalet try to notice the run down homes with old, used up minivans in the dirt driveways and the apartment houses with no parking so the residents park in the street. That's where the people who buy the cars that you traded in ten years and two new owners ago live. Those are the vehicles owned and barely maintained by the middle aged hourly workers and clock punchers at the factories and fast food restaurants. Even if you could make EVs free it's probable that the wiring in some of those old houses couldn't handle the chargers or the inner city charging facilities become unavailable or vandalized and inoperable. There are areas in your local county that don't even have trash pickup but some committee in a government building says that no one in that area can purchase a new ICE truck to tow their bass boat.
I really think it's all a lofty idea being enforced too quickly and without thought to the people who don't live in upscale suburban neighborhoods. The US and its people are too diverse for such a broad declaration forcefully applied within such a short timeline and I think many people are upset about it.

Excellent post.

[bondtoys]

Far from it imo.

I see so many logical errors in the post above.
If I was poor, I‘d rather own a badly maintained 10 year old EV than a 10 year old badly maintained ICE car.
No engine troubles, no transmission troubles and potential battery issues are very few and can be repaired - no need to replace an entire battery.

The house wiring issue can be avoided by either slowcharging (most of people have the entire night to charge) or by public charging places in residential areas. My town is testing street lamps as future charging spots as an example.

Previous posts moaned about the electric power for EVs coming out of coal burning sites.
Imo burning coal or oil can‘t be the future for any application - we must find alternatives to it.
But even if the electric power comes from a 100% fossil mix ( coal/oil),

- those sites are running always on an optimum level of efficiency and emmissions - unlike our ICE vehicles

- EVs are using around 20-25% of the energy of an ICE which converts 70-80% of the energy into unneccessary heat!

I am amazed that any potential issues are seen as a no-go for EVs. Where is the spirit of solving issues instead of nay-saying?

[GB-man]

Some context is needed though. This was posted on the Rolex forum not R/pennypinchers. Of course we are discussing 1st world problems.

[joli160]

Well, you do need to take all the polluting required to produce an EV into account.
Think about the devastating effects of mining for the batteries. It’s too easy to just look at the CO2 output.

The ecological footprint of an EV is not all that sunny as we are led to believe.
There was a Belgian professor who calculated that an EV needs to drive 700k kilometer to become break even.
Under great pressure he had to adjust his numbers… we all know what happens if you vent an unpopular opinion especially with facts to back it up.

I continue using a very efficient EU6 petrol engine with soot filter and believe that I have a lesser negative impact on the world around me compared to driving an EV.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by binArt

You skipped a step. Build more power plants and upgrade the grid.

The US consumed over 134 billion gallons of gasoline and over 46 billion gallons of diesel fuel last year. The energy of those fossil fuels must be replaced by electrical power in addition to what is produced today - trillions of kW worth of fossil energy in use today versus billions of kW of electrical generation capacity today.

It takes some time to upgrade the power supply to meet that kind of new demand. I doubt I will see it in my lifetime.

I can‘t verify if your numbers are all about usage of fuel only applies to vehicles or if power plants, households, industry etc are included.

However if we are going full EV, we will have to replace 1/4 of the fossil energy with electric power - because EVs are so much more efficient than ICE engines.

And that shift will happen over the next 10-15 years, I am pretty sure that we have managed to solve tougher obstacles in the past ;)