Did I get scammed?

[ts3]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

I wonder why this watch was altered so much. So weird.

Indeed.

I can see people tempted to drop a 324 movement from some Calatrava into a fake 5711 case to make a quick buck but this? Feels like some moron got their hands on a massively banged up 5146P (or parts of it) and tried to put back some life into it on the cheap.

Buying modern and neo-vintage watches exclusively with original papers should lower the risk of getting scammed.

[1William]

This is a mess. Anything can happen and we can all be victims of an unscrupulous seller if we do not follow the basic rules. And just because a Seller has a good reputation it is only part of the overall buying equation. Once questions arose about this watch and the buyer pushed forward even though many here brought legitimate concerns forward it seemed like we were talking to a wall. Now PP has rendered its verdict and it is just as many thought. Actually worse. This is a real problem for the retailer as I would never do a deal with them going forward and with the internet this is now out there and will impact the reputation going forward. I will praise the OP for keeping us up to date even though it opens him up to what I believe is justifiable criticism. The solution, get your money back and move on. Learn from this, as I have.

[Kreyzhorse]

Damn.... hoping an easy resolution and return of your funds and then some.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by 1William

This is a mess. Anything can happen and we can all be victims of an unscrupulous seller if we do not follow the basic rules. And just because a Seller has a good reputation it is only part of the overall buying equation. Once questions arose about this watch and the buyer pushed forward even though many here brought legitimate concerns forward it seemed like we were talking to a wall. Now PP has rendered its verdict and it is just as many thought. Actually worse. This is a real problem for the retailer as I would never do a deal with them going forward and with the internet this is now out there and will impact the reputation going forward. I will praise the OP for keeping us up to date even though it opens him up to what I believe is justifiable criticism. The solution, get your money back and move on. Learn from this, as I have.

I hear you, and heard everyone else who said run, don’t walk away from the seller. The problem was the seller already had my money when I (belatedly) noticed the lume issue and made my first post. The watch had not yet shipped to me—and it never was.

My intuition was that my best bet for getting the full refund (or at worst positioning myself for litigation) was to get irrefutable proof the watch was inauthentic. To do this, I was able to negotiate the watch being sent to Patek, by Phigora, and that occurred. I did not have high hopes based on what others reported that the watch would pass inspection, but I wanted to ensure a contingency in case it did.

[samuel019]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

I hear you, and heard everyone else who said run, don’t walk away from the seller. The problem was the seller already had my money when I (belatedly) noticed the lume issue and made my first post. The watch had not yet shipped to me—and it never was.

My intuition was that my best bet for getting the full refund (or at worst positioning myself for litigation) was to get irrefutable proof the watch was inauthentic. To do this, I was able to negotiate the watch being sent to Patek, by Phigora, and that occurred. I did not have high hopes based on what others reported that the watch would pass inspection, but I wanted to ensure a contingency in case it did.

Exactly. Hard to plead your case when they had your money and at the time you had No solid proof. IMO you did everything perfectly.

Good luck with the next watch and getting your money back etc etc

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Update: I did get a full refund and confirmation from my bank that the funds have cleared.

I would still however absolutely discourage anyone from buying from Phigora, its owner George Fatahov or its employee Boris Sasunov. I cannot credibly accept that their errors were innocent. As someone else stated very succinctly there are only two explanations: 1. They can’t tell a real watch from junk - bad; 2. They can tell a real watch from junk, and they’re selling junk - bad.

Either explanation should put them on the "do not buy from" list.

[Kreyzhorse]

Congrats. It was a bad situation that was corrected and handled well by the seller.

[Bmats]

The seller obviously dropped the ball somewhere but they made it right in the end — which means a lot in my book. It’s possible they’re now the ones left holding the bag.

I am curious what happened — was it the employee on Moda that messed up, do they have bad controls, or was it a one off.

[Tom V]

Originally Posted by Kreyzhorse

Congrats. It was a bad situation that was corrected and handled well by the seller.

I am curious to know your logic. Why this situation was handled well by the seller? As others have claimed... they messed up in multiple fronts, out of malice or stupidity. Having your money returned because they couldn't identify a buyer that would take home their fraudulent watch is not the definition of handling the situation well. That was the only thing they could do to avoid going to court. Also, the situation has not been corrected, as they will probably try to sell this to someone else.

[Apheaven]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update: I did get a full refund and confirmation from my bank that the funds have cleared.

Smart move…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moondoggy]

Good outcome, sadly this would happen so often with vintage pieces, more so movements tampered with over the years.

[yellowfinger]

I suspect the seller or platform fully knows what they are selling. 99% of their buyers are not on TRF. Working with franken watch makers, if they can sell 10 franken watches and only get 10% returned. They will make a killing.

Originally Posted by codecow

That’s what I mean. In terms of the shop either:

1. They can’t tell a real watch from junk - bad
2. They can tell a real watch from junk, and they’re selling junk - bad

I can’t think of any other option where they’re coming out looking reasonable.

I guess the 3rd option is we’re all stupid and it’s a fine example.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by yellowfinger

I suspect the seller or platform fully knows what they are selling. 99% of their buyers are not on TRF. Working with franken watch makers, if they can sell 10 franken watches and only get 10% returned. They will make a killing.

I guess, but as soon as one needs service they’re going to get taken to court.

Really I think people shouldn’t be buying watches online unless they’re from a trusted seller, ideally a shop with their own service who also sends them out when they’re of that caliber (ex. Lange, FPJ, trinity) so they come back with service stickers when sold. Generally anything off warranty I’d probably want a service sticker if it’s a few years past.

Naked watches are also a no no for anything of this age, they should all have box and papers.

[Kreyzhorse]

Originally Posted by Tom V

I am curious to know your logic. Why this situation was handled well by the seller? As others have claimed... they messed up in multiple fronts, out of malice or stupidity. Having your money returned because they couldn't identify a buyer that would take home their fraudulent watch is not the definition of handling the situation well. That was the only thing they could do to avoid going to court. Also, the situation has not been corrected, as they will probably try to sell this to someone else.

You are assuming they knew it was fraudulent and that they will probably try to sell it again. Handling it well was the buyer easily getting his money back.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by Kreyzhorse

You are assuming they knew it was fraudulent and that they will probably try to sell it again. Handling it well was the buyer easily getting his money back.

1. I was told by a Phigora employee that he had three 5146 watches that lacked lume dots.

2. I was told by the owner of Phigora that he conferred with multiple Patek dealers who told him that the dial was original and probably a special request. He tried to claim it was a piece unique, even after his employee said he saw/sold multiple watches with the same issue.

3. Patek said the annual calendar was not working properly. That the watch wasn’t even working properly completely belies Phigora’s claim that it inspects watches prior to sale.

4. The watch was so over polished that Patek would not polish it. This is obviously not “very good” condition.

I find it hard for Phigora to explain away all of these facts as innocent mistakes.

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

1. I was told by a Phigora employee that he had three 5146 watches that lacked lume dots.

2. I was told by the owner of Phigora that he conferred with multiple Patek dealers who told him that the dial was original and probably a special request. He tried to claim it was a piece unique, even after his employee said he saw/sold multiple watches with the same issue.

3. Patek said the annual calendar was not working properly. That the watch wasn’t even working properly completely belies Phigora’s claim that it inspects watches prior to sale.

4. The watch was so over polished that Patek would not polish it. This is obviously not “very good” condition.

I find it hard for Phigora to explain away all of these facts as innocent mistakes.

tbh, the site name "Phigora" sounds exactly like something that is a scam site.

[Nana7]

Glad you were able to get your money back OP. Will definitely be staying away from Phigora and other dealers that show similar red flags

[Bmats]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

1. I was told by a Phigora employee that he had three 5146 watches that lacked lume dots.

2. I was told by the owner of Phigora that he conferred with multiple Patek dealers who told him that the dial was original and probably a special request. He tried to claim it was a piece unique, even after his employee said he saw/sold multiple watches with the same issue.

3. Patek said the annual calendar was not working properly. That the watch wasn’t even working properly completely belies Phigora’s claim that it inspects watches prior to sale.

4. The watch was so over polished that Patek would not polish it. This is obviously not “very good” condition.

I find it hard for Phigora to explain away all of these facts as innocent mistakes.

Well that all seems pretty bad.

So what are you going to get now? I feel there are a lot of 5146s out there, so you should have options from trusted sellers.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by Nana7

Glad you were able to get your money back OP. Will definitely be staying away from Phigora and other dealers that show similar red flags

It's been a bit embarrassing to have been in this situation, but I wanted to make sure others don't make the same mistake I did.

Before I decided to buy the watch, I looked up Phigora. They have a brick and mortar location with an actual storefront, some press about the business and a seemingly good online presence. I felt pretty safe given what I saw. Goes to show how careful one needs to be.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by Bmats

Well that all seems pretty bad.

So what are you going to get now? I feel there are a lot of 5146s out there, so you should have options from trusted sellers.

I'm looking at a watch at Takuya Watches, European Watch Co. and Watchbox.

Correct me if I'm wrong--those are regarded as trusted sellers.

[Ahfe]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

I'm looking at a watch at Takuya Watches, European Watch Co. and Watchbox.

Correct me if I'm wrong--those are regarded as trusted sellers.

I would probably rank them watchbox, European watch co, and then Takuya.
Watch box is an authorized patek dealer so they know what they are selling..

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by Ahfe

I would probably rank them watchbox, European watch co, and then Takuya.
Watch box is an authorized patek dealer so they know what they are selling..

Any concern about Takyua?

[Ahfe]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Any concern about Takyua?

Not as big I would say, to be honest no experience with them, but from what I have seen, their prices are too high imo.. I had positive experience with watchbox and you can negotiate sometimes the price..

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by DonLee

tbh, the site name "Phigora" sounds exactly like something that is a scam site.

Maybe they should change it to Phugazi?

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

I'm looking at a watch at Takuya Watches, European Watch Co. and Watchbox.

Correct me if I'm wrong--those are regarded as trusted sellers.

One of Thierry Stern's last interviews mentioned Watchbox:
https://robbreport.com/style/watch-c...s-1234825009/; extract: "You need to have a very good organization to do it. Then your business is different, like WatchBox, they’re doing it, and they have over a hundred people working for that."


So on that basis, Thierry Stern being knowledgeable about Watchbox and mentioning them, I would say that Watchbox is a trusted seller.

[nyc2la]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

I'm looking at a watch at Takuya Watches, European Watch Co. and Watchbox.

Correct me if I'm wrong--those are regarded as trusted sellers.

I mentioned much earlier EWC earlier in this thread. They have a sealed and recently serviced one.

[codecow]

Out of those you for sure can’t go wrong with Watchbox. IIRC Takuya has been selling on here since I have been a member (10 years) which probably says enough.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by codecow

Out of those you for sure can’t go wrong with Watchbox. IIRC Takuya has been selling on here since I have been a member (10 years) which probably says enough.

Takuya is Great and so is Nashville Watch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bob101]

Always buy the dealer especially when buying pre owned. Check reviews and ask friends. Stick to specialist Patek dealers. If you do buy pre owned from a collector or third party remember that Patek provides authentication at the service centre. Yes it takes a little time and have to pay for it but it’s worth it as you never know if some third party has swapped out parts. If the seller is not willing to wait for authentication take your business elsewhere.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Any concern about Takyua?

If you’re dealing with Thanh do akatakuya then there’s no concerns at all. He has been selling here for over a decade and I’ve done many deals with him. Very polite and always a pleasure to work with. I would wire him six figures without losing any sleep.

That said, yes watchbox is maybe the largest secondary market dealer in the world and EWC is one of the pre-eminent dealers on the east coast. You couldn’t deal with more well capitalized dealers than either of them.

I’d focus on the condition of each example and then see who can offer you the best price.