Auction preview: Monaco Legend October 19th/20th

[foxytimes]

The autumn sessions starts. Here is the catalogue:

https://cdn.monacolegendauctions.com...-c6c0e0119a83/

Estimates in € correspond to US$ with factor 1,1 (+10%)
Please note: Final price is hammer prices plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination.

Lot 17
18238 1989 rubellite dial
estimate €30-60k

Lot 35
19048 1983 sapphire string dial case and bracelet customised
estimate €10-20k

Lot 36
116710 2021 Asprey GMT purple dial, amethyst, black/white diamond bezel
estimate €50-100k

Lot 39
16618 1991 Sub lapis lazuli dial
estimate €50-100k

Lot 76
116599 2006 Daytona on strap, Roman pavé dial, diamond and ruby bezel
estimate €80-160k

Lot 88
1803 1964 silver dial
estimate €6-12k

Lot 104
116759SANR 2008 diamonds and black sapphires bezel
estimate €40-80k

Lot 108
18238 1989 head only ivory pyramid Roman dial
estimate €9-18k

Lot 109
18038 1987 wood dial
estimate €15-30k

Lot 110
6511 stainless steel DD 1955 tropical brown dial
estimate €750-1500k

Lot 112
18038 1980 Roman champagne dial
estimate €9-18k

Lot 135
228239 2020 blue dial
estimate €30-60k

Lot 141
Red stella stick dial (dial only) 80' (18038-26)
estimate €10-20k

Lot 142
18039 1980 head only, wood dial
estimate €20-40k

Lot 175
118238 2002 jubilee MOP diamond dial
estimate €20-40k

Lot 209
6241 1969 YG Daytona John Player, "Paul Newman" dial
estimate €750-1500k

Lot 217
16238 2001 on strap, ferrite dial
estimate €10-20k

Lot 220
6511 1956 silver dial, red date wheel
estimate €30-60k

Lot 225
19018 1980 wood diamond string dial
estimate €10-20k

Lot 227
6305 1955 RG DJ black glossy lacquered dial
estimate €20-40k

Lot 241
6098 1952 galaxy black star dial
estimate €150-300k

Lot 248
18348 1990 pavé dial, diamond dial and bezel, Chinese calendar
estimate €30-60k

Lot 260
18238 1988 onyx dial, Arabic calendar
estimate €35-70k

Lot 266
18038 1980 tiger-eye dial, Spanish calendar
estimate €30-60k

Lot 270
1803 1975 burgundy stella dial, Indonesian calendar
estimate €25-50k

Lot 272
4316 1976 WG King Midas, onyx and diamond dial
estimate €18-36k

Lot 273
16008 1977 champagne dial
estimate €10-20k

Lot 284
18079 1979 tiffany blue stella dial
estimate €35-70k

Lot 290
18366 1996 silver diamond dial, baguette diamond bezel
estimate €40-80k

[TuRo]

This will put Miamiclay's adjacent post, on the reported Strong DD values, to the test I guess.
The few auctions I've attended/followed in the EU this summer, have neither been well attended or eliciting strong prices tbh.

[foxytimes]

Perezcope has to say something about the top lots. It will be interesting to see if these watches sell, especially the DD:

https://perezcope.com/2024/10/16/shi...-fake-tiffany/

It's a minefield and unfortunately there is little (to none) information available from the manufacturer. As a bonus there is quite a lot of inconsistency in time periods for the use of dials, lume, fonts...

This forum provides some crucial information thanks to great contributors but the absolute truth is sometimes hard to find.

[miamiclay]

Beyond Jose’s meticulous scrutiny, even dilettantes like me can sometimes be left wondering … wtaf? (I’m reminded of how women describe dating in Alaska - “The odds are good, but the goods are odd.”)

E.g., lot #284 is a Day-Date 18079 described as “Extremely rare … White Gold, Bark Finish Engraving and Sky-Blue Stella Dial” (estimated at $38-76K) All of that may be true, … as far as it goes.

However, it’s pretty clear that this yellow gold handset and yellow gold furnished dial never belonged in this white gold Day-Date. (The dial’s coronet and printed text are both yellow gold.)

https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-284
.

[foxytimes]

Nothing goes unseen with Clay! You are spot on as always. Well, dilettantes are others definitely.

The results of the first auction day imply hammer prices in the lower range generally. I'll give a breakdown as soon as the first day finishes.

[DarknerImperator]

[Redwes25]

Unbelievable that that Franken watch ended up with that price.

[Mark020]

If it is really sold....

[miamiclay]

This one, lot 17, hammered today at the €30K low estimate.

I don’t recall seeing a grossular / rubellite dial with these 8+2 diamond markers in a 18238. Usually these have either pinballs or all 10 identical markers - I’m not at all certain, but I wonder if this dial may have been originally in a later 118238.
.

[TuRo]

Oh blimey - A taxi for Monaco Legends Auctions, just perhaps

[foxytimes]

The first day is over. And yes, the hammer prices are on the lower end generally. The contested lots performed not as bad as expected but imho this is due to the Parmigiani marketing and the fact that Monaco is a tax heaven and populated by moneybags.

Estimates in € correspond to US$ with factor around 1,1 (+10%)
Please note: Final price is hammer price plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination.

Lot 17
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-17
18238 1989 rubellite dial
estimate €30-60k hammer €30k


Lot 35
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-35
19048 1983 sapphire string dial case and bracelet customised
estimate €10-20k hammer €12k

Lot 36
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-36
116710 2021 Asprey GMT purple dial, amethyst, black/white diamond bezel
estimate €50-100k hammer €95k

Lot 39
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-39
16618 1991 Sub lapis lazuli dial
estimate €50-100k hammer €95k

Lot 76
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-76
116599 2006 Daytona on strap, Roman pavé dial, diamond and ruby bezel
estimate €80-160k hammer €77k

Lot 88
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-88
1803 1964 silver dial
estimate €6-12k hammer €8,5k

Lot 104
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-104
116759SANR 2008 diamonds and black sapphires bezel
estimate €40-80k hammer €65k

Lot 108
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-108
18238 1989 head only ivory pyramid Roman dial
estimate €9-18k hammer €9k

Lot 109
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-109
18038 1987 wood dial
estimate €15-30k hammer €17k

Lot 110
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-110
6511 stainless steel DD 1955 tropical brown dial
estimate €750-1500k hammer €920k

More to come today with some interesting specimens in the DD range. I'll keep you posted.

[996marty]

Some big prices still being paid out it would seem. Although the range on the estimates is pretty big

[foxytimes]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

This one, lot 17, hammered today at the €30K low estimate.

I don’t recall seeing a grossular / rubellite dial with these 8+2 diamond markers in a 18238. Usually these have either pinballs or all 10 identical markers - I’m not at all certain, but I wonder if this dial may have been originally in a later 118238.
.

It seems to be obvious that this dial was NOT originally mounted in a DD from 1989. I'm not sure if these stone dials with the later diamond configuration were available yet at the 1999/2000 point.

Nevertheless the hammered price around U$33k seems to be rather soft.

[Incroyable12]

Italian watch dealers are notorious for making very clever fakes and franken watches.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Italian watch dealers are notorious for making very clever fakes and franken watches.

Yep. I always avoid Italian dealers on Chrono24 etc. for this reason. “Oh, that’s a nice Patrizzi dial on that 16520….oh, an Italian dealer….too bad!”

[foxytimes]

The lower estimate reigns at Monaco's October auction. With a few exceptions. Previously contested lots performed not as bad as expected but imho this is due to the Parmigiani marketing and the fact that Monaco is a tax heaven and populated by moneybags.

A few takeaways: Wood dials didn't fetch premiums, a new (2020) DD40 sells under 30k, a Stella dial only went for 22k, stone dial DDs didn't get beyond 35k - and oh well, the YG Tiffany dial in a WG bark DD went for 70k despite its wrongness. In other words: A (neo-)vintage DD >30-40k must definitely be something special...

Here are the selected results:

Estimates in € correspond to US$ with factor 1,1 (+10%)
Please note: Final price is hammer price plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination.

Lot 17
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-17
18238 1989 rubellite dial
estimate €30-60k hammer €30k

Lot 35
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-35
19048 1983 sapphire string dial case and bracelet customised
estimate €10-20k hammer €12k

Lot 36
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-36
116710 2021 Asprey GMT purple dial, amethyst, black/white diamond bezel
estimate €50-100k hammer €95k

Lot 39
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-39
16618 1991 Sub lapis lazuli dial
estimate €50-100k hammer €95k

Lot 76
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-76
116599 2006 Daytona on strap, Roman pavé dial, diamond and ruby bezel
estimate €80-160k hammer €77k

Lot 88
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-88
1803 1964 silver dial
estimate €6-12k hammer €8,5k

Lot 104
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-104
116759SANR 2008 diamonds and black sapphires bezel
estimate €40-80k hammer €65k

Lot 108
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-108
18238 1989 head only ivory pyramid Roman dial
estimate €9-18k hammer €9k

Lot 109
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-109
18038 1987 wood dial
estimate €15-30k hammer €17k

Lot 110
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-110
6511 stainless steel DD 1955 tropical brown dial
estimate €750-1500k hammer €920k

Lot 112
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-112
18038 1980 Roman champagne dial
estimate €9-18k hammer €11,5k

Lot 135
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-135
228239 2020 blue dial
estimate €30-60k hammer €29k

Lot 141
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-141
Red stella stick dial (dial only) 80' (18038-26)
estimate €10-20k hammer €22k

Lot 142
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-142
18039 1980 head only, wood dial
estimate €20-40k hammer €21k

Lot 175
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-175
118238 2002 jubilee MOP diamond dial
estimate €20-40k hammer €16,5k

Lot 209
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-209
6241 1969 YG Daytona John Player, "Paul Newman" dial
estimate €750-1500k hammer €790k

Lot 217
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-217
16238 2001 on strap, ferrite dial
estimate €10-20k hammer €16k

Lot 220
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-220
6511 1956 silver dial, red date wheel
estimate €30-60k hammer €39k

Lot 225
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-225
19018 1980 wood diamond string dial
estimate €10-20k hammer €18k

Lot 227
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-227
6305 1955 RG DJ black glossy lacquered dial
estimate €20-40k hammer €25k

Lot 241
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-241
6098 1952 galaxy black star dial
estimate €150-300k hammer €300k

Lot 248
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-248
18348 1990 pavé dial, diamond dial and bezel, Chinese calendar
estimate €30-60k unsold

It seems to be the same watch like this one:
https://www.chrono24.ch/rolex/rolex-...id35089920.htm
for sale at C24 for around 40k

Lot 260
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-260
18238 1988 onyx dial, Arabic calendar
estimate €35-70k hammer €35k

Lot 266
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-266
18038 1980 tiger-eye dial, Spanish calendar
estimate €30-60k hammer €28k

Lot 270
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-270
1803 1975 burgundy stella dial, Indonesian calendar
estimate €25-50k hammer €27k

Lot 272
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-272
4316 1976 WG King Midas, onyx and diamond dial
estimate €18-36k hammer €20k

Lot 273
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-273
16008 1977 champagne dial
estimate €10-20k hammer €11,5k

Lot 284
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-284
18079 1979 tiffany blue stella dial
estimate €35-70k hammer €70k

Lot 290
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-290
18366 1996 silver diamond dial, baguette diamond bezel
estimate €40-80k hammer €54k

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by foxytimes

Final price is hammer price plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination.

Also, the hammer price doesn’t include quite a hefty buyer’s premium. E.g., #284, the WG 18079 with the wrong YG Stella dial (pictured above) cost the buyer over $100K USD, even if no VAT was due - !!

The MLA site is now showing the prices (in €) with the buyer’s premiums included.
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...-timepieces-35

[Incroyable12]

The vintage white gold Cartiers did quite well.

It looks like there's an ever widening gulf for white gold/platinum watches over yellow gold.

[miamiclay]

Looking just at the DDs in this auction, the 4- and 5-digit stone and Stella dials seem to be roughly 2.5-3X what they were five years ago; wood dials up somewhat less, roughly 2X. (The below numbers are approximate, in USD, and include the buyer’s premium but not VAT, duties, etc)

Onyx no-markers“Swiss Made” 18238 on bracelet - $50K
Tiger eye no-markers 18038 on bracelet - $40K
Oxblood diamond Stella 1803 on strap - $38.6K
Wood/string dial 19018 YG Oysterquartz on bracelet - $25.4K
WG/Wood 18039 on strap - $30K
WG bark 18079 on bracelet with YG blue diamond Stella - $100K

For comparison, a more ‘standard’ DD, a YG/champagne 18038 on bracelet, brought $16.3K

[foxytimes]

Oh yes, I missed the buyer's premium. Unless you live in Monaco you will end paying VAT (around 20% in EU countries, 8.1% in Switzerland) or duty or duty and sales tax (In the US it depends on the declaration of the parts: movement, case and bracelet afaik - so duty is around 2-10%, $0 under $800. Sales tax is not automatically charged on imported goods. However, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) declarations are made available to state tax representatives that may occasionally claim state taxes from the importer.).

As Clay explains the all included auction prices are still high for the buyer. But let's look at it the other way round. How much does the seller get for his watch? There the calculation is rather different. I didn't find the seller's premium with Monaco Legend but in general auction houses charge around 15% of the hammer price. Additional fees apply for expertise, photography or insurance.

So from the seller's perspective the numbers are as follows:

Onyx no-markers“Swiss Made” 18238 on bracelet - $32K
Tiger eye no-markers 18038 on bracelet - $26K
Wood/string dial 19018 YG Oysterquartz on bracelet - $16K
WG/Wood 18039 on strap - $19K
WG bark 18079 on bracelet with YG blue diamond Stella - $65K

For comparison, a more ‘standard’ DD, a YG/champagne 18038 on bracelet, brought the seller around $10K.

The question is now: Could the seller achieve more $$ on the free market selling to a dealer? And would the buyer pay less on the free market buying from a dealer? It's probably theoretical because these special DD's aren't liquid enough to establish a trusted market price. And the cost of visibility to a wide audience consists in the auction's premiums.

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by foxytimes

In the US it [customs duty] depends on the declaration of the parts: movement, case and bracelet afaik - so duty is around 2-10%, $0 under $800. Sales tax is not automatically charged on imported goods. However, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) declarations are made available to state tax representatives that may occasionally claim state taxes from the importer.

All correct ofc - In fact as to the latter, I recently got a “sales tax audit” notice from the FL Dept. of Revenue. (I don’t *think* I bought any watches from a non-US seller during the period it covers, but I’ll have to dig into my records when I return to Miami. Apparently if a seller does not pay the FL sales tax, the buyer is obligated to do so independently. No one sends a bill, I guess we are just supposed to know?)

As to customs duty, I’ve never yet had it add up to more than 2-3%, although I think I’ve only bought from Japan and the EU. The odd part is this - While there are indeed different duty rates for the movement, case, and bracelet, with the less common DDs (and many other vintage Rolex), much or most of the value is not in any of those parts - It’s in the dial! (Idk how customs treats that - In ordinary usage I wouldn’t consider a dial to be part of any of those, but logic is a *highly* unreliable guide to the law … )

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by DarknerImperator

what am I missing here? That seems nuts.

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by southtexas

what am I missing here? That seems nuts.

Setting aside the issues Jose raised with this particular watch in the link above, there are only 8 (or maybe 10?) steel Day-Dates, which iirc were all given to Swiss horology school graduates back in the 1950s.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

Setting aside the issues Jose raised with this particular watch in the link above, there are only 8 (or maybe 10?) steel Day-Dates, which iirc were all given to Swiss horology school graduates back in the 1950s.

well, that was a quite the rabbit hole I just fell into. Very interesting!