Kermit flat 4 questions?

[www777]

I’m considering picking one up. Any idea what years these were produced compared to the regular Kermit? Any questions I should be asking the dealer about? Thanks

[Tools]

A flat-4 is a "regular Kermit"

When the LV came out back in 2003, the first few runs were part of that era of bezel insert. It is indicative of a time period, not some special accessory that only the LV got.

The first year or so would be flat 4 insert and oval O in Rolex. If original these are the cream of Kermit Subs.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Tools

A flat-4 is a "regular Kermit"

When the LV came out back in 2003, the first few runs were part of that era of bezel insert. It is indicative of a time period, not some special accessory that only the LV got.

The first year or so would be flat 4 insert and oval O in Rolex. If original these are the cream of Kermit Subs.

And, if I might add to the comments from Tools, you will find the flat 4 16610LV variation from the years 2003-2004.

As collectors key in on subtle variations of their favorite collector model, the Submariner
16610LV didn't let them down.

The following post provides information and other links that discuss the 16610LV variations.

https://gmtforum.com/viewtopic.php?f...1d76c3a7999c33

[geoach]

get one with white hang take or papers..........I have a late Y the first of the lv flat 4 mark 1 dial.with what hand tag..........I seen a flat 4 here f0 but oddly the dial is 3. tics swiss made which came later.......the dial was changed at some point..........I think

[swish77]

Originally Posted by www777

I’m considering picking one up. Any idea what years these were produced compared to the regular Kermit? Any questions I should be asking the dealer about? Thanks

Once you determine that the LV is a legit flat 4 variation, ask yourself if it’s worth all that extra money for such a minuscule difference.

I went down this road, and I just couldn’t bring myself to spend thousands of dollars more for a “4” that has a slightly different font that you need a loupe to notice.

I’d much rather put my money into overall condition and a full set was all correct. It’s a great reference, with or without a flat 4 bezel insert.

[subx]

the point of the flat 4 is that it quickly identifies it as a first year production, aka the true 50th Anniversary Sub.
Found only in Y (pre run) late 2003, and F0xxxxx (first run) 2004

[springer]

Originally Posted by swish77

Once you determine that the LV is a legit flat 4 variation, ask yourself if it’s worth all that extra money for such a minuscule difference.

I went down this road, and I just couldn’t bring myself to spend thousands of dollars more for a “4” that has a slightly different font that you need a loupe to notice.

I’d much rather put my money into overall condition and a full set was all correct. It’s a great reference, with or without a flat 4 bezel insert.

Variations and subtle differences - isn't that what drives collectors. No matter what you collect, we love those variations which drives us crazy if we don't have it. I could list all kinds of variations on the several Rolex models that bring substantial premiums. Enough to fill a whole page.

With that said, go for the flat 4 variation if that's what you seek. It is undoubtedly one of the most collectable Rolex watches from the past 20 years.

[springer]

Originally Posted by subx

the point of the flat 4 is that it quickly identifies it as a first year production, aka the true 50th Anniversary Sub.
Found only in Y (pre run) late 2003, and F0xxxxx (first run) 2004

If you must have the "flat 4" collectors should realize the first year of production is not limited to Y and F0 serial numbers. I have no idea what a pre run is but all of the first run or early anniversary Submariners had the same similarities and have been found in much later serial numbers than F0. Additionally, the Y serial numbered anniversary Subs as a "must have" is promoted by dealers to hype their sales. But, if you feel the need to have an early serial numbered flat 4, the earliest known serial numbers begin with Y9.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

Variations and subtle differences - isn't that what drives collectors. No matter what you collect, we love those variations which drives us crazy if we don't have it.

Totally agree, but it needs to be a significant variation, one that makes a visual impact, IMHO.

Red Sub, yes. DRSD, yes. Gilt dials, yes, Big Red Daytona, double yes. These are very cool, noticeable distinctions on watches.

Whether or not an insert “4” has a slightly pointy or slightly flat top is not worth $6K-$8K more. Not for me anyway. Maybe I’m odd.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by swish77

Totally agree, but it needs to be a significant variation, one that makes a visual impact, IMHO.

Red Sub, yes. DRSD, yes. Gilt dials, yes, Big Red Daytona, double yes. These are very cool, noticeable distinctions on watches.

Whether or not an insert “4” has a slightly pointy or slightly flat top is not worth $6K-$8K more. Not for me anyway. Maybe I’m odd.

I have pondered this myself - take a 16520 with a floating dial. I like it, and I understand that it is special, but that much more money, for a little more space between two lines of text? I can better understand the argument for e.g. a porcelain dial or a red sub, but then again - you could also say “so much more money just for a different color of text?”. Maybe I’m odd too

[0nly5iv3Digits]

I wouldn't pay a premium for "flat 4". That said, I also just prefer the B4/B5 shades...

[~JJ]

Also, there’s been members here that received a flat 4 insert during service so the field is very muddy. I agree with a previous poster that you need the original hang tag since most collectors at this level only consider the first year of production to be the only correct year with that bezel even thought it’s not a 100% true.

[springer]

Originally Posted by ~JJ

Also, there’s been members here that received a flat 4 insert during service so the field is very muddy. I agree with a previous poster that you need the original hang tag since most collectors at this level only consider the first year of production to be the only correct year with that bezel even thought it’s not a 100% true.

There is much more than the "flat 4" bezel insert found on the early 16610LV that identifies these watches.

The watch needs to have all the attributes identified in threads identifying these flat 4 models. Also, within the typed (not punched) USA warranty paper, there should be a V after the 16610 model number found at the top right corner where it reads "style." There should normally be a white hang tag marked 16610LV with the set if it wasn't kept by the dealer at the time of the sale.

The original hang tag is a bonus but not necessary for USA watches if trying to identify a genuine 16610LV. The style number will identify the Submariner as a 16610LV.

Also, I have found that outside the USA, with the punched papers found on these LV models, there is no style number on the warranty paper. In this case, these sets did have the model number 16610LV typed on the hang tag. 16610LV or 16610V will be absent from the warranty paper.

[1665fan]

F4 and maybe f5 is the latest I have seen any real flat 4

[illiguy]

Originally Posted by swish77

Once you determine that the LV is a legit flat 4 variation, ask yourself if it’s worth all that extra money for such a minuscule difference.

I went down this road, and I just couldn’t bring myself to spend thousands of dollars more for a “4” that has a slightly different font that you need a loupe to notice.

I’d much rather put my money into overall condition and a full set was all correct. It’s a great reference, with or without a flat 4 bezel insert.

I agree with this. However, for those hunting for a Flat 4, go on with your bad self.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by ~JJ

Also, there’s been members here that received a flat 4 insert during service so the field is very muddy. I agree with a previous poster that you need the original hang tag since most collectors at this level only consider the first year of production to be the only correct year with that bezel even thought it’s not a 100% true.

Correct. Co worker of mine sent his D serial 16610LV into the Dallas RSC back in like 2015 and it came back with a 'flat 4' replacement insert.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Correct. Co worker of mine sent his D serial 16610LV into the Dallas RSC back in like 2015 and it came back with a 'flat 4' replacement insert.

This is hilarious! Didn't know that! That's gotta be a real "kick" to the proverbial nutsack to those that paid a premium for a post-F serial flat 4...

That genuinely sucks!

[Serif]

There is a whole thread on this on a uk based forum but naturally google it instead if you don’t want want to click on the link:
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...o-an-LV-for-me

[mpkRolex]

Originally Posted by Tools

A flat-4 is a "regular Kermit"

When the LV came out back in 2003, the first few runs were part of that era of bezel insert. It is indicative of a time period, not some special accessory that only the LV got.

The first year or so would be flat 4 insert and oval O in Rolex. If original these are the cream of Kermit Subs.

Thanks

[geoach]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Correct. Co worker of mine sent his D serial 16610LV into the Dallas RSC back in like 2015 and it came back with a 'flat 4' replacement insert.

but it's not a serf font like my Y96 lv.........there is more than a flat 4 that makes a true 2003 lv......the dials tell

[XavierM]

When I was looking for my LV, I had the opportunity to choose between an unpolished Flat 4 mk1 and a slightly later pointed 4 mk1 in NOS sold directly by Rolex (probably to an employee or as a gift) for the same price.
I went for the second one as I was looking for a piece of collection, not a watch to wear.
But that’s just the path I have decided to follow back then, 100% personal choice, no right or wrong here IMO.

[Andad]

A press pack and CD wouldn’t be bad either.

[Sublovin]

These old lv are great to wear but the premium people to try to justify in the minor differences is foolish in my opinion. If Rolex had made this as an anniversary piece, then discontinued, it would be highly collectible. Fact of the matter is that they continued to make them for a loooong time. There are a ton of them. Trying to manufacture some scarcity or collectibility based on a couple tiny details is foolish. It's a fun watch to wear. But the one that you feel is a good deal.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by geoach

but it's not a serf font like my Y96 lv.........there is more than a flat 4 that makes a true 2003 lv......the dials tell

If you want to tell yourself that to make yourself feel better have at it. In the real world nobody is going to notice or care about such.

[geoach]

Originally Posted by ronricks

If you want to tell yourself that to make yourself feel better have at it. In the real world nobody is going to notice or care about such.

better tell the in red sub owners thenor the authors of in depth articles written on the subject lv and why it makes it collectors piece talking about 2003 ref

[Andad]

Originally Posted by ronricks

If you want to tell yourself that to make yourself feel better have at it. In the real world nobody is going to notice or care about such.

In the real world you are correct.

In the Rolex world maybe not so much.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Andad

In the real world you are correct.

In the Rolex world maybe not so much.

Right

[swish77]

Originally Posted by geoach

better tell the in red sub owners thenor the authors of in depth articles written on the subject lv and why it makes it collectors piece talking about 2003 ref

Red Subs are a very different animal. That splash of red on the dial makes a visible impact. Same for a DRSD or a Big Red Daytona.

The difference between a pointy or flat top on an insert “4” is not the same. Whether or not the big premium is worth it is up to the buyer to decide, of course.

[springer]

Originally Posted by swish77

Red Subs are a very different animal. That splash of red on the dial makes a visible impact. Same for a DRSD or a Big Red Daytona.

The difference between a pointy or flat top on an insert “4” is not the same. Whether or not the big premium is worth it is up to the buyer to decide, of course.

Aaron, read up on the differences between the LV models. I put a link to the various differences with the LVs in one of my earlier posts.

The flat 4 bezel insert is just one of the most visible difference between the various LVs.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

Aaron, read up on the differences between the LV models. I put a link to the various differences with the LVs in one of my earlier posts.

The flat 4 bezel insert is just one of the most visible difference between the various LVs.

Yes, I know about the other differences, but they are all super minor visually.

Still, I respect that some collectors would pay a lot of money for an early LV. I think it’s less about those little visual differences, and more about knowing that they have an LV from the first batch of the reference.