Something is not quite right

[climbhigh]

Here is a sub on sale at TRF:

(search using this "Rolex Submariner Ref: 16610 Tiffany and Co")

by user: jacek


http://************/showthread.php?t=149992

1) The tiffany fonts look way different than other fonts on the dial, both in size and color.

2) The insert's dot is aged yet markers on the dial are not.

3) This is the big one: Look at the serial #s etching. Looks like it is done by hand. Look at the 8 and other letters.

I am not 100% sure but point #3 especially doesn't sit well with me.

[TimeToGo]

Jacek is SOLID.

The Tiffany writing was not done at the Rolex factory, thus the different font.
The insert dot is beautiful!
Serial numbers look good. If that was done by hand, I wish I had that steadiness!

[mcjp6]

Looking at what you have noticed, I can understand your concerns, but there are no problems.

I can say Jacek is a 100% seller, here and on VRF and in his store in SF. I have also purchased from Jacek. All is good here.

Research is good and is the only way to learn but next time do not put in the sellers name until you are certain. Around here some people can get the wrong end of the stick pretty quickly......

[climbhigh]

I am not trying to ruin anyone's reputation. I spoke on what I saw. Look at the pic again below. I posted some blue lines to point somethings out. Where 1661o is written, look at the curvatures of the '6'. Also look at other blue lines I have put.

Look at the facts in the image and forget about who is selling the watch. Maybe you need to magnify the image to see what I am talking about.

Also, having a great reputation has nothing to do with the ability to recognize fakes or getting conned. The best of us can get conned and sell a product we ourselves think is genuine.

The 4 blue lines I have put on the image below should be a major RED flag against the watch, not necessaily against the seller.

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by climbhigh

having a great reputation has nothing to do with the ability to recognize fakes

I could not agree less. These sellers build their reputation by having a history of being able to provide quality, genuine vintage Rolex watches, ie one knows that you will not get conned.

Norman and I have both pointed out that the listing is good. If you have a problem with a members listing either contact the seller or report it to a mod.

[climbhigh]

It doesn't matter if God comes down and tells me it is good. I still see an inconsistency with
my eyes:how do you explain the difference in the curvature of the '6' ???
The second '6' in 16610 is extremely different from the first one. Until someone can
explain it, this should be a sticking point.

since the digits are laser etched, how can the curvature of the second '6' be so
different, if done by the same laser, sequentially. Only explanation: it is not laser etched.
If it is not laser etched, it is a fake because in 1990 Rolex was using lasers.

Magnify the '16610' and compare the '6's.

Look at the '9' in the serial #. It has this exaggerated curve at the bottom. I have never seen a '9' like it.
A '9' should look like a '9' like here:

http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/a...35/Rolex03.jpg

[springer]

Climbhigh, you make some interesting comments. I believe lug stampings could be best described as "more of a science" than an art. The serial numbers are "stamped" and are not laser etched as you wrote in your post.

Some stampings are so poor, under magnification that they look like they were hand etched. I have seen many, many stampings where two identical numbers or letters can vary slightly as you pointed out in one of your posts. Dies wear with age and they will never be perfectly the same after thousands of stampings. Also, when a photo is posted of a serial number or model number, the angle, magnification or lighting can affect the final result of the photo - often making it appear to be something that it isn't. (See the examples below)

The font for the "Tiffany" appears appropriate and can vary slightly from the font on the remainder of the dial since it was applied separate.

I can see your concerns, as many of us are always skeptical of these Tiffany branded dials. The dial on this Submariner appears consistent with other Tiffany branded dials that I have seen in the past. The Submariner here appears genuine. The serial number and model number stampings appear 100% genuine.

Here are a few stampings for you to review. Please take note of the 16760 stamp. Both sixes are slightly different. Compare the sixes from some of the other photos too. Also, notice the four 8's found in the last two photos; they are all slightly different.

Jacek has been around here for a while and is a solid member of TRF. But, from my experience, anyone can go "bad" at anytime. With that said, it is not the case here and if you are uncomfortable with this watch, you might need to look elsewhere for a Rolex. I think he presents a fine watch here for sale and consideration by the TRF community.

[climbhigh]

well, as long as this type of engraving has been seen before, I guess it is acceptable. Only reason I raised an objection was that I have never seen it before and I was a strict believer in "Rolexes are perfect" methodology. Everywhere you look, that's the catchphrase people use to descibe Rolexes. This engraving example throws that thinking out the door.

[jeff hess]

Tiffany watches in general are probably faked almost as often as Rolex.

The watch is completely straight in my opinion. The font is consistent with many Tiffany Rolexes I have owned. The serial number issues are really non-issues in my opinion.

I have had the lucky pleasure of owning scores of Tiffany Rolexes, many with original papers. And for sure the Tiffany signatures are not "COMPLETELY" consistent. I once bought dozens of dials from a liquidator who bought the contents of a Tiffany store that had moved locations in Chicago. Most of the dials were ladies no-dates with a smattering of day-dates and datejusts. The signatures were "basically" consistent but often weak.

To bad there are so many fakers around. This watch, if it had papers, would go for much much more.

IMO, the subject watch above is 100 percent straight. Good luck.

Jeff

[jeff hess]

Great point about the "Rolex is perfect" belief.

I think all of us want to believe that Rolex is Perfect. And indeed, Rolex, (along with many other brands) are heads and shoulders above all others when it comes to near-perfection.

When you visit top notch facilities (my experience in factories is limited to Glashutte Original, Rolex.Breitling and Roger Dubuis among others), it is CLEAR that they are out to achieve watchmaking perfection. (hats, plastic booties over your shoes etc etc before entering some factories).

But even Rolex makes mistakes. Whether hand engraving or machine work, neither are perfect. And when a tiny mistake is made, a few of them slide by the final QC department.

This is especially true with vintage Rolex. Today, Rolex is at the top of the heap. But no one, not even Rolex, is perfect.

Jeff Hess, Rolex Fan

[blaine mattison]

a funny story about over magnification. at the nawcc nationals in grand rapids
mi. i had just picked up a closed 6 red sub a few weeks before the show.

it was the last day and a another guy was showing his red sub (that was a fake)
to a very well know collector/dealer that was at the show. i stood there watched & listen to what was said. i also noticed he was using a diamond loupe. if i remember correctly, it was a 14x. (holy cow thats big!!) so i figured it was time to show mine, and to see what he would say??. i can assure you, that person doesn't know as much as he thinks...

back to the story. he looked at it for a few minutes. and i asked what are you looking at??? he hands me my watch back and say's i feel it's about 90% fake??

hmmmm.. i asked why would you make such a statement. and his response was that the print is "bleeding". of course i couldn't be quite and said, i could find cracks in a egg shell with THAT XXXXXX loupe.

and i also said that if you thought that rolex was perfect on a dial print from the 70's you don't what the hell your talking about. and walked away. my point, rolex isn't 100% perfect. they come very very close every time to reproducing the same watch that just rolled off the line>> #1,#1,#1,#1,#1,#1,#,1#1,#1,#1,#,1,#1


that "snowman>>8" that's what i call them to remember the shape
the "6's" are really a inverted 9
the 5 has that vertical "tower of pisa lean"
the 2 has the "swan"
the 7 has the "bent walking stick".

please don't laugh, but that is how i remember them!!


by the way, the red sub was 100% geniune.
Jacek, can we do some trading??